[DTM] Why there is no good solution for DTM's dilemma

[mark_l]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

If BMW need new marques to join, then the future is bleak if the series is reliant on BMW.

Better to make a change, and allow BMW to leave or stay, without it affecting the viability of the series for the future.

Any series is better if the manufacturers are asking to get involved, as opposed to dictating how things should be. F1 is regularly criticised for allowing teams to have too much say over what happens, so why would DTM opt for the same problems?

As I've said before, why would BMW race against itself. There is no marketing value in that, imagine the adverts in monday newspapers "BMW wins again".

[helgi]

The series is reliant not only on BMW but all other manufacturers, because it's organized and ruled not by ADAC or some other racing club or federation, but by manufacturers themselves. It is suitable for TV-show but not for the sport. That's why there's no good solution. Every show has to be finished. It's not like running or sailing going on and on through the centuries.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by mark_l

As I've said before, why would BMW race against itself. There is no marketing value in that, imagine the adverts in monday newspapers "BMW wins again".

Exactly. If BMW need to demonstrate a victory over another manufacturer, and the series needs BMW, then the series is flawed.

Although I could pose another question:
In 2011, why did Honda race against itself in the BTCC? The answer might give an indication of where DTM should be headed.

[mark_l]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Exactly. If BMW need to demonstrate a victory over another manufacturer, and the series needs BMW, then the series is flawed.

Although I could pose another question:
In 2011, why did Honda race against itself in the BTCC? The answer might give an indication of where DTM should be headed.

There has always been more than 1 team in BTCC, in DTM BMW will be the sole manufacturer and as all teams are works teams they would effectively battling themselves for the win, unless the DTM becomes a one make championship like the Mini championships.

[thetool]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Although I could pose another question:
In 2011, why did Honda race against itself in the BTCC? The answer might give an indication of where DTM should be headed.

They didn't. Chevrolet were also a manufacturer entry.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by thetool

They didn't. Chevrolet were also a manufacturer entry.

They weren't, which is the point I'm making.

By 2011, Honda was the only manufacturer entry left in BTCC.
To handle this situation, the manufacturers championship was amended to become the constructors championship. The Chevrolets were entered under this category, because of the fact they were being run by the same organisation that built the cars (RML).

It is this difference that may be the route DTM has to go if it will survive.
Entries built without manufacturer backing, by specialist touring car constructors. Ran by the constructors themselves or as customer teams.

2011 was not Honda vs Chevrolet. It was Team Dynamics vs RML.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

It is this difference that may be the route DTM has to go if it will survive.
Entries built without manufacturer backing, by specialist touring car constructors. Ran by the constructors themselves or as customer teams.

In that case you are basically locked into using road-car shells instead of tubeframes as well, as manufacturers (at least the German ones) have historically always prevented the use of unauthorized silhouettes. There's not much they can do if you take an Audi shell and label it an Audi, because that's what it is, after all - but if you want to slap the Audi name on a tube chassis, you better have good lawyers - and even then you'll probably have to stop calling your car an Audi and modify it until it has only a passing resemblance to an A3/4/5/6/7.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

In that case you are basically locked into using road-car shells instead of tubeframes as well, as manufacturers (at least the German ones) have historically always prevented the use of unauthorized silhouettes. There's not much they can do if you take an Audi shell and label it an Audi, because that's what it is, after all - but if you want to slap the Audi name on a tube chassis, you better have good lawyers - and even then you'll probably have to stop calling your car an Audi and modify it until it has only a passing resemblance to an A3/4/5/6/7.

Is being locked into using road car shells such a bad thing if it works?

[S griffin]

It could actually work, but it would probably need a few add ons to keep it spectacular

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

It could actually work, but it would probably need a few add ons to keep it spectacular

Like an EV powertrain delivering 0-60 mph times under 2.5 secs?

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Not to mention that no mainstream auto maker (aside from Tesla, which has Elon Musk's billions and more money in Gov't subsidies/tax breaks behind it) even sells a fully electric car yet, certainly not in North America.

That's not correct, there are many fully electric cars from mainstream automakers. Most of them aren't very good but they are or were on sale. For example, Honda Clarity electric version, VW e-Golf, Ford Focus electric, Hyundai Ioniq electric, Chevrolet Volt, Chevrolet Bolt, Mitsubishi iMiev and of course the famous Nissan Leaf etc. The new wave of luxury electric EVs will arrive to US soon too [Jaguar iPace, Mercedes EQC, Audi eTron, Ford Mustang Mach-e etc].

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

If the fans want the big three to race the type of cars they cling on to the hope of seeing, they should be out buying them in bigger numbers.

Since you are in Ireland, you surely must appreciate the costs of running a big V8 coupe like a C63 AMG or M4 in Germany or Ireland!

It's Australia, it is nowhere near as expensive since our petrol is about 60% the price and we have no CO2 taxes, yet most people still don't drive big V8 coupes (or V8 sedans or V8 utes/pick-ups).

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by helgi

As I've said "NGTC +alpha". RWD 2-door sedans with production bodyshell, tuned production engine and custom aero. Could have been on par with GT3 at least. And cheaper - with clever management. But it would have been a "no way" from "Board Upstairs". Because it's not prestigious enough.

Add the Ford Mustang GT alongside the BMW M850i and we have a category that could work in both Germany and Australia.

Would German fans be happy to lose the aerodynamics from their DTM cars?

Would BMW be happy to be racing a "common" manufacturer like Ford?

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Like an EV powertrain delivering 0-60 mph times under 2.5 secs?

For how many laps until it overheats or runs out of battery charge?

Also 0-60 mph is not very important for a racing car, compared to 60-120 mph.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

For how many laps until it overheats or runs out of battery charge?

Also 0-60 mph is not very important for a racing car, compared to 60-120 mph.

Agreed they're factors that need to be addressed.
That is happening in FE though, with a s 0-60 and a battery range that lasts for a 45 minute race - so it's not beyond the realms of possibly.

The closest specs I can find are for quarter mile times.

Five Tesla models are listed as completing the quarter mile in under 11 secs, which puts it at similar level to 911 Turbo S, an AMG E63S or an M5.

[helgi]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Add the Ford Mustang GT alongside the BMW M850i and we have a category that could work in both Germany and Australia.

Would German fans be happy to lose the aerodynamics from their DTM cars?

Would BMW be happy to be racing a "common" manufacturer like Ford?

Gen3 rules for DTM? That would work if there was no hunt for a "super duper premium" reputation. It's not about tech side at all. Are there any DTM fans who care about it? It's all about marketing - and "Ford question" is the main, I suppose.

[NaBUru38]

Speaking of road cars, would Porsche enter the Taycan into DTM?

[Sodemo]

How much do Formula E cars weigh?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

How much do Formula E cars weigh?

800kg, including driver

[thetool]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

They weren't, which is the point I'm making.

By 2011, Honda was the only manufacturer entry left in BTCC.
To handle this situation, the manufacturers championship was amended to become the constructors championship. The Chevrolets were entered under this category, because of the fact they were being run by the same organisation that built the cars (RML).

It is this difference that may be the route DTM has to go if it will survive.
Entries built without manufacturer backing, by specialist touring car constructors. Ran by the constructors themselves or as customer teams.

2011 was not Honda vs Chevrolet. It was Team Dynamics vs RML.

Chevrolet were a manufacturer entry. I think you are getting confused with Dynamics/Honda & Arena/Ford.

In 2007 Team Dynamics were informed by TOCA that due to the level of input Honda had into their new S2000 Civic, they would no longer be considered an independent entry and would instead by classified as a Constructor.

They were later joined in this category by Arena when they built their own Fords.

https://www.autosport.com/btcc/news/...field-for-2010

Up until 2010 Dynamics continued to operate in this sort of no-mans-land between factory and independent entry, with Honda then coming fully onboard for the 2010 season as manufacturer team.

I can't find the official copy of the report on the 2011 entry from the time, but the below link is an exact copy and paste.

https://www.crash.net/btcc/news/1676...011-entry-list

Honda & Chevrolet entered as manufacturer teams, the Fords entered as a "constructor" team.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by thetool

Chevrolet were a manufacturer entry. I think you are getting confused with Dynamics/Honda & Arena/Ford.

In 2007 Team Dynamics were informed by TOCA that due to the level of input Honda had into their new S2000 Civic, they would no longer be considered an independent entry and would instead by classified as a Constructor.

They were later joined in this category by Arena when they built their own Fords.

https://www.autosport.com/btcc/news/...field-for-2010

Up until 2010 Dynamics continued to operate in this sort of no-mans-land between factory and independent entry, with Honda then coming fully onboard for the 2010 season as manufacturer team.

I can't find the official copy of the report on the 2011 entry from the time, but the below link is an exact copy and paste.

https://www.crash.net/btcc/news/1676...011-entry-list

Honda & Chevrolet entered as manufacturer teams, the Fords entered as a "constructor" team.

My mistake, you're right. I apologise.

In my mind, I remembered BTCC having a season with just one manufacturer. I also recall Plato driving an RML-prepared Chevrolet as an independent entry. Both of these I put around the turn of the decade.

Looking back at the details now, it looks like that was 2009. The sole manufacturer entry was Vauxhall.

In the context of this thread, the point is that BTCC realised a long time ago it couldn't rely on manufacturers, but they still dip in and out of the series from time to time. The series is healthy though, and it has been quite some time since a manufacturer built a BTCC car, as opposed to supporting an entry that would have been on the grid anyway.

As was quoted in TCT at the time about the 2010 Honda - 'Is it a works entry? Is it semi-works? Manufacturer? Independent? Oh who cares,' adopting this mentality would put DTM in a better place I feel.

[DS"]

German news site motorsport-magazin has a very interesting series of articles on their homepage. It's about the attempt to revive the DTM in the late 90's. To sum it up: By the late 90's, everyone wasn't satisfied with the STW. Therefore, four people set up a secret group, in order to draw up plans for a new DTM: Christian Danner, Rainer Braun - German commentary legend -, the then-head of RTL's sports department and a technician from Opel. I'll leave links below and I'd recommend translating the articles with deepL. It should be good enough, if you translate them from German to English.


https://www.motorsport-magazin.com/d...k-2000-teil-1/
https://www.motorsport-magazin.com/d...k-2000-teil-2/
https://www.motorsport-magazin.com/d...k-2000-teil-3/


Maybe that could be a way to go for current DTM, as the situation is somewhat similar. Maybe the remaining stakeholders - BMW, Sat1, drivers, teams and officials - should band together and draw up a concept that will deliver spectacular racing at a reasonable cost, while keeping an eye on the future.


BTW: Am I the only one that finds it odd that a commentator had a hand in drawing up regulations for a series? Imagine John Hindhaugh having a hand in creating regulations for the WEC. That being said, both can claim to be experts in their area, so why not?

[Matt K]

I haven't managed to read it yet but I'll definitely do it. It seems interesting and maybe, as you say, this could provide an example for today's situation.

And yes, this is strange that a commentator was involved in it but I think this is quite a nice idea to have someone 'from the outside' to have a say on it.

[Speed-King]

That Rainer Braun article is well worth the read, and incidentally does a good job explaining why a production-based 2.0l series is not a good solution for Germany.

[porsche962fan]

Originally Posted by DS"

German news site motorsport-magazin has a very interesting series of articles on their homepage. It's about the attempt to revive the DTM in the late 90's. To sum it up: By the late 90's, everyone wasn't satisfied with the STW. Therefore, four people set up a secret group, in order to draw up plans for a new DTM: Christian Danner, Rainer Braun - German commentary legend -, the then-head of RTL's sports department and a technician from Opel. I'll leave links below and I'd recommend translating the articles with deepL. It should be good enough, if you translate them from German to English.


https://www.motorsport-magazin.com/d...k-2000-teil-1/
https://www.motorsport-magazin.com/d...k-2000-teil-2/
https://www.motorsport-magazin.com/d...k-2000-teil-3/


Maybe that could be a way to go for current DTM, as the situation is somewhat similar. Maybe the remaining stakeholders - BMW, Sat1, drivers, teams and officials - should band together and draw up a concept that will deliver spectacular racing at a reasonable cost, while keeping an eye on the future.


BTW: Am I the only one that finds it odd that a commentator had a hand in drawing up regulations for a series? Imagine John Hindhaugh having a hand in creating regulations for the WEC. That being said, both can claim to be experts in their area, so why not?

article is total rubish

the most exiting era of DTM was 1988-1990 when the cars they used were even closer to the road cars than the STW cars

and to highlight the point STW and DTM did compete until 1996 and who has "won" ? DTM then spiraled itself out of existance thanks to astronomic costs, pretty much like recently