Congratulations to Max Verstappen - 2022 Champion

[Adam43]

I’ll go.

He’s not the Massiah he a very naughty boy.

[Beau2]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I did. Mika says it would be naughty to disregard a pre-race agreement. Red Bull claim there was no pre-race agreement. But Red Bull also claim they only asked Max on the last corner, which we know isn't true because...well we all watched the race. Max also said to stop asking him to give places back as he has continually clarified why - which means they did discuss it pre-race.

Maybe every time Max or Christian tells an obvious lie we should get Jos to slap them and leave them at a petrol station.

No. It means they have discussed the idea at some point in the season (s), not necessarily right before Interlagos GP.

I'm not even sure why they would discuss it pre-Brazilian GP. Max had much more pace all weekend, as evidenced by the fact he was able to catch up to Perez even after his penalty (albeit with a bit of safety car help). The only way Max was likely to end up behind Perez was if he got involved in an incident like we saw, this season incidents that have slowed Max have been a rarity.

I wouldn't be surprised if this is part of Max's reasoning for not letting Perez though - rightly or wrongly Max was the quicker driver anyway.

[Adam43]

I have no idea whether they did or not, but I can clearly see why they would discuss it! They will cover lots of eventualities. The if you and Checo are close seems a reasonable one.

Not even sure that is the point. The point is Max is quite adamant he didn’t want to help Checo. That’s it. No when it was discussed makes a difference to that. It’s simple. The team revolves around Max and the person most sure that this should be absolute is Max. Or maybe Jos

[Beau2]

Well yes, the point is that Verstappen is a two-time Champion and is a bit of a knob at times, whilst his team allows him to be a knob.

If this was the only point of discussion then I think we would all be in agreement and it would be a rather short discussion

When and how these things are discussed important though - RBs agreement on when to swap drivers might only be when the driver behind is faster, which of course Perez wasn't and we get into why both Ferrari & Mercedes were letting their drivers race with no team orders.

[dsg]

Originally Posted by Beau2

Well yes, the point is that Verstappen is a two-time Champion and is a bit of a knob at times, whilst his team allows him to be a knob.

This seems the norm and not the exception for most F1 teams.

[Born Racer]

Maybe being a knob is the stuff champions are made of. Even the generally regarded as a nice guy Damon Hill admitted in his autobiography he needed to be a knob (of some words to that effect).

[seanyb505]

It's a sports champion mindset. Some have enough personality to hide it, others let it dominate. The second you show weakness is when your competition comes through.

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by seanyb505

It's a sports champion mindset. Some have enough personality to hide it, others let it dominate. The second you show weakness is when your competition comes through.

I don’t buy this. There are innumerable world class sportspeople who are not *******s. Verstappen isn’t one of them. He is a generational driving talent, no doubt about that, and is likely to dominate the sport for years. I don’t think that is a good thing, largely because he is surrounded by acolytes and people who excuse and indulge him, so there seems little prospect of him maturing as other firebrand young drivers did.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

I don’t buy this. There are innumerable world class sportspeople who are not *******s. Verstappen isn’t one of them. He is a generational driving talent, no doubt about that, and is likely to dominate the sport for years. I don’t think that is a good thing, largely because he is surrounded by acolytes and people who excuse and indulge him, so there seems little prospect of him maturing as other firebrand young drivers did.

Actually his manager is fine. His Dad’s a different matter.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Actually his manager is fine. His Dad’s a different matter.

I confess I know nothing about Vermeulen. I suspect the people AOR is referring to include Horner and Marko.....

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I confess I know nothing about Vermeulen. I suspect the people AOR is referring to include Horner and Marko.....

Ah, maybe.

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I confess I know nothing about Vermeulen. I suspect the people AOR is referring to include Horner and Marko.....

Yes and Dad. I likewise know nothing about his agent, nor his mother or other family. I am of course not suggesting that everyone in Verstappen’s life (or at Red Bull) is toxic, that would be absurd. But the three key men in his racing career are appalling people.

That said, perhaps I am patronising him by offering excuses. Verstappen is a grown man, even if he is the product of an abusive father and a simpering, indulgent professional coterie. He’s been in F1 for 8 seasons and is a double World Champion. By this point other firebrand youngsters - Senna, Hamilton, Schumacher, Raikonnen - has matured significantly. Verstappen has not.

None of this would matter if he wasn’t such a brilliant driver. That’s what makes it so sad, for him personally and the sport. Behaviour such as refusing to help Perez and not bothering to avoid the collision with Hamilton is just so utterly pointless, stupid and unnecessary. This is the greatest driver of the current and coming era and he is a poor, poor role model and figurehead. IMHO, of course.

[Beau2]

Jeez...it was two incidents from a single race within a season of 22 races. A season I must say that Verstappen has been almost exemplary. This whole situation really is now just a storm in a tea-cup.

I'm not really sure we need this level of character assassination and amateur psychological analysis.

Every driver including Senna, Hamilton, Schumacher etc had their moments of throwing their toys out of the pram or acting out of character after they had "matured". I don't think Verstappen cares about being a figurehead, and nor did any of the named drivers above - they all cared about winning and this meant occasionally stepping over the line at times.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Beau2

I'm not really sure we need this level of character assassination and amateur psychological analysis.

It’s just childish. Overthought and guessed analysis from someone who’s probably never met him or even had the chance to observe him first hand.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by peebee2

It’s just childish. Overthought and guessed analysis from someone who’s probably never met him or even had the chance to observe him first hand.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by peebee2

It’s just childish. Overthought and guessed analysis from someone who’s probably never met him or even had the chance to observe him first hand.

Probably so. But he's perfectly entitled to his opinion. I don't entirely share it because I think Beau is quite right. Let's face it, I'm a lifelong Senna fan and I'm aware that the guy had his faults. However I do find it difficult to park my dislike of Max's major influences at RBR. At the same time I recognise that there are (and probably always have been) other influences in F1 teams over the years that were prone to attracting dislike. I can't help it, I just don't like them and I suspect I would struggle to like them if I actually met them....

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Probably so. But he's perfectly entitled to his opinion. I don't entirely share it ....

Absolutely, everyone is entitled to their opinion, be it fan guesswork or based more on reality.

[chillibowl]

i'll take the punter's opinion any day because at least i know whose opinion i am reading.

if im being honest peebee2, we have no idea if the information you are passing on is your opinion of how you see things transpiring (actual first hand view) or if its someone else in the paddocks point of view which you are just repeating... this imo makes it difficult to engage with your posts.

just my opinion, but because of this it appears to me (or i default to) that you are not taking ownership of what you write because ultimately to you it is just you passing 'information' on...that has the unfortunate and perhaps unintended consequence of your posts seemingly lacking the level of passion other members bring to these discussions.

does it go too far at times, sure and are some people going to far with the psychoanalysis of Max...no doubt but it comes from a place of passion and love of talking about F1 among a like minded and incredibly knowledgeable group of regular fans...and you dont find this in too many places anymore.

not on the internet anyways so forgive us if we are going to be defensive about protecting this.

love the insight you bring to the table but it would be nice to also know your actual opinion on things absent any insider info so we can also engage with you on our preferred level instead of these topics devolving into you reminding us how we dont know anything.

cheers mate!

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

i'll take the punter's opinion any day because at least i know whose opinion i am reading.

if im being honest peebee2, we have no idea if the information you are passing on is your opinion of how you see things transpiring (actual first hand view) or if its someone else in the paddocks point of view which you are just repeating... this imo makes it difficult to engage with your posts.

just my opinion, but because of this it appears to me (or i default to) that you are not taking ownership of what you write because ultimately to you it is just you passing 'information' on...that has the unfortunate and perhaps unintended consequence of your posts seemingly lacking the level of passion other members bring to these discussions.

does it go too far at times, sure and are some people going to far with the psychoanalysis of Max...no doubt but it comes from a place of passion and love of talking about F1 among a like minded and incredibly knowledgeable group of regular fans...and you dont find this in too many places anymore.

not on the internet anyways so forgive us if we are going to be defensive about protecting this.

love the insight you bring to the table but it would be nice to also know your actual opinion on things absent any insider info so we can also engage with you on our preferred level instead of these topics devolving into you reminding us how we dont know anything.

cheers mate!

Absolutely agreed. I wasn't having a go at any particular thin-skinned poster, although I did laugh at one suggesting I am pro-Red Bull.

It was more a comment on human behaviour and how we can like or dislike people we've never met.

I am just the same with football. Some players I really like and some I dislike. If I ever actually met them I know I might actually think the other way around!

Like in all walks of life, some of those in F1 and the support series who might look good on the TV etc. are actually cocks if you get to know them and some who come across badly are actually just the nicest people.

[Aysedasi]

Absolutely so. This is just basic human nature, I guess. Like my changing opinion of Seb Vettel over the years. I once met a pop star in a professional capacity (I never liked his music much) and he was a nice guy, but was a very poor communicator (I was going to use another term but it would sound far too derogatory!) and he needed a friend with him to help him (albeit in a tricky situation which many would struggle with). I also met a sportsman (in the same capacity) who was at his absolute peak at the time and he came over as a real primadonna but he was someone who I grew to like as a personality as he got older. I think Max is a long way off maturing - he is still a young man after all - and hopefully those of us with reservations will see his character change in time....

Originally Posted by chillibowl

if im being honest peebee2, we have no idea if the information you are passing on is your opinion of how you see things transpiring (actual first hand view) or if its someone else in the paddocks point of view which you are just repeating... this imo makes it difficult to engage with your posts.

Without meaning to sound critical, I think this is exactly why you sometimes receive criticism of your posts/posting style. You may well be well-connected in the paddock, but (AFAIK) none of us are aware of that connection as it's something you've not shared, nor do you have to. However, absent of that explanation, there will always be those who take what you say with a pinch of salt as a result....