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Old 19 Nov 2019, 21:11 (Ref:3941680)   #126
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Sorry, but nothing will convince me this free pass rule belongs in F1. Quite frankly if you’re a lap down you shouldn’t have it handed to you on a plate. Especially as the SC doesn’t come out every race. Also consider the fact the leader did all the hard work of lapping those cars to build a buffer
a lapped car goes to the back of the pack though...how does that disadvantage the leader?

if anything its actually a benefit to the race leader to have the back markers sent to the back of the pack as the leader now gets to drive in clean air for a longer period of time and distance.

its about positioning on the track as opposed to actual race position.

so a SC essentially does what a standing restart would do except that it does so more quickly then a restart, sending out all the team members and equipment back on track, doing a formation lap etc etc.

anyways, im not too bothered to see a Williams gifted a lap...heck i would gift them a race win if i could!
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Old 19 Nov 2019, 21:23 (Ref:3941681)   #127
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It disadvantages the leader because he no longer has that car between him and the second place car. And the standing restart comparison doesn’t work. In the days before SCs, if a red flag came out mid race we would have results decided on aggregate. Anyway this rule doesn’t belong. If you wanna see something contrived, you can always watch NASCAR. As I said earlier this rule has everything to do with luck and nothing to do with skill
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Old 19 Nov 2019, 21:42 (Ref:3941683)   #128
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It disadvantages the leader because he no longer has that car between him and the second place car. And the standing restart comparison doesn’t work. In the days before SCs, if a red flag came out mid race we would have results decided on aggregate. Anyway this rule doesn’t belong. If you wanna see something contrived, you can always watch NASCAR. As I said earlier this rule has everything to do with luck and nothing to do with skill
I agree Griff, at very least the backmarkers should be left where they are, as you say just contrived rubbish.
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Old 19 Nov 2019, 21:54 (Ref:3941684)   #129
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i can see the issue about erasing the time interval between P1 and P2....but clearly this is a different concern to a lapped car being placed back onto the lead lap.
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Old 19 Nov 2019, 22:21 (Ref:3941689)   #130
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Just thought, further to my point, Ocon proved you don’t need a SC to unlap yourself in last season’s race here. Ok we know that didn’t end well, but shows you can recover from being lapped on merit
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Old 19 Nov 2019, 22:41 (Ref:3941690)   #131
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i can see the issue about erasing the time interval between P1 and P2....but clearly this is a different concern to a lapped car being placed back onto the lead lap.
The leader had to make his way past the lapped cars that are between him and the second placed car, so by removing the lapped car between them you are further compressing the leader's advantage.
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Old 19 Nov 2019, 23:15 (Ref:3941692)   #132
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So the preferred solution would be to leave the lapped car in place (in this case between p1 and p2) and then allow the lapped car to dictate the pace of the p2 car during the eventual rolling restart?

Doesnt that negatively effect p2's advatange over p3 and so on and so on?
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Old 19 Nov 2019, 23:26 (Ref:3941695)   #133
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Well the best drivers always are good at getting through traffic
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Old 20 Nov 2019, 09:18 (Ref:3941729)   #134
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to each their own of course but i am totally fine with a few extra boring SC laps if it means getting more laps of the leaders in close quarters.
In that case, they could drop the "safety" car pretence and call it the "spice things up" car. Bring it out every five laps to bunch things up: you'll have lots of excitement and no lapped cars to cause problems.
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Old 20 Nov 2019, 11:14 (Ref:3941742)   #135
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I seem to remember reading they once suggested in the early 90s that the SC should come out if a driver built up something like a ten second advantage. Thankfully it was never adopted
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Old 20 Nov 2019, 14:24 (Ref:3941770)   #136
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A kind of 'mercy rule', I guess......
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Old 20 Nov 2019, 15:47 (Ref:3941781)   #137
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In that case, they could drop the "safety" car pretence and call it the "spice things up" car. Bring it out every five laps to bunch things up: you'll have lots of excitement and no lapped cars to cause problems.
well i do like spicy food more than bland food!

but hey if people like back markers out in front so much then we might as well just put all the slow cars out in front and go full on reverse grids right?

and we can do this, as you say, every 5 laps!

putting silly statements aside...i think the relative difference in lap times (and budgets) between the top cars and the rest of the field is so pronounced that a different approach must be taken.

in a race with no SCs, the bottom 14 runners typically finish a lap down. if a top car starts at the back, they are easily within the points and typically close to a podium scoring position once the first round of pit stops is done. such is the advantage of money.

you say that moving the lapped cars out of the way is 'contrived'...i say leaving them in the way as mobile chicanes is not even a 'competition'.
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Old 20 Nov 2019, 15:57 (Ref:3941782)   #138
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But if you don’t like the gap between the top guys and the rest, then we need stabler rules to keep it close, not artificial methods like this
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Old 20 Nov 2019, 16:14 (Ref:3941784)   #139
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But if you don’t like the gap between the top guys and the rest, then we need stabler rules to keep it close, not artificial methods like this
we are in complete agreement about needing better rules.
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Old 20 Nov 2019, 17:22 (Ref:3941796)   #140
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Oh, lord, here we go again: I detest the word "artificial" when it's used to describe rules in motorsport that aren't liked by someone/some people/everyone.

Motorsport isn't, and almost never has been anything other than artificial (but that's an old beef of mine which you can search for if you're that way inclined).

With regard to moving lapped cars out of the way, the rules were brought in to a number of series as a result of accidental or contrived behaviour by backmarkers in the queue which adversely affected races, causing drivers/teams with a chance of competing from being able to.

The ironic bit is that the sort of person that decries the current state of affairs is the exact same sort of person that screamed about injustice in those instances, before the current rules existed.

Rulebooks grow, in part, because the appetite for danger has decreased (the Bianchi incident being a case in point) and because the good old law of unintended consequences rears its head extremely frequently. F1 teams pay a large amount of money to a small number of extremely clever people to find holes in the rules, because it benefits them financially to do so. It doesn't benefit the rule makers in the same way to expend that money or intellect, so once in a while we all have to suck up the fact that the rules are the way they are.

TBH, there's no need at all for a safety car in F1 in most cases. The technology is such that they could just do a variant of FCY (that isn't VSC), where the speed limits vary by light panel sector using the current flag light signalling system to the cars. It's not rocket science, it would keep the speeds down, and it would allow safe working of everyone in the danger zone - and if there's a genuine need to have a step up from that, that's where the SC comes out.

(Here's where Woolley mentions "if the drivers observed the flags"...)
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Old 20 Nov 2019, 18:48 (Ref:3941811)   #141
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When discussing artificial, it seems that only the front runners are ever talked about. But this is a race where there's 20 cars. Is it not artificial to have 10th place get a 1 lap lead over 11th due to a SC? Allowing lapped cars to go around stops artificial gaps being created in the midfield.

This is a massive problem in multi-class racing. Wave arounds are a must. But it happens in single class racing too.
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Old 20 Nov 2019, 19:15 (Ref:3941814)   #142
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Wave arounds are not a must. It’s up to drivers to find their own way past cars, not handed to them on a plate. It’s a ridiculous rule. I guess I’m too much of a purist
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Old 20 Nov 2019, 20:02 (Ref:3941824)   #143
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Wave arounds are not a must. It’s up to drivers to find their own way past cars, not handed to them on a plate. It’s a ridiculous rule. I guess I’m too much of a purist
That's not really what I said, and certainly not the point I was trying to make.

It'd be nice to keep the context of the "a must" comment, with regards to it being multi-class racing where it's a must. It also has absolutely nothing to do with drivers "find their own way past", but rather not creating artificial lap gaps in the midfield (and lower classes). And that's where it becomes important for single-class racing as well. We may be fixated on the battle for the lead, but there's a whole field of cars and rules have to work for them too.

When all else fails, resort to being a purist. Immediate high-ground.
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Old 20 Nov 2019, 22:04 (Ref:3941836)   #144
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The important thing is we keep things simple. Too many times F1 has over complicated things
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Old 21 Nov 2019, 08:07 (Ref:3941895)   #145
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In all of this discussion, let's please remember one thing:

We are talking about Safety Cars, and Virtual Safety Cars.
They exist for the purposes of safety, and that should be the only factor taking into consideration as to whether they achieve their purpose or not.
If the use of SC and VSC makes racing safer, then any other second order effects must be tolerated as part of their use.

That's not to say there is no reason why the second order effects should not be looked at to see if they can be mitigated. But safety first - racing second.
If a driver loses out on a championship because someone else's life was saved through the use of a safety car, c'est la vie.
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Old 21 Nov 2019, 08:09 (Ref:3941896)   #146
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The important thing is we keep things simple. Too many times F1 has over complicated things
I disagree - the important thing is we keep things safe. Too many times self-proclaimed 'purists' have over simplified things.
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Old 21 Nov 2019, 10:46 (Ref:3941914)   #147
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I personally would love to see Vettel out, too many mistakes over the past two seasons surprised Ferrari have kept him in just look at Gasly out in half a season. Binnito needs to drop the axe and while at it have a word with Le clerc yes a talent but to seems to have the attitude that he is the almighty at the moment and that the team revolves around him. I think he is heading for a shock in the future seems too careless. Replacement for Vettel got to be Ricardio a talent wasting away at Renault but what would it take to snatch him away from Renault maybe a deal where Ferrari do a deal to offer hulkenberg (take him on as a reserve) loan him to Renault��
Either that or force him to take on sport psychologist and give him the first half of the season to prove he can keep his emotions under control when he's got his helmet on.

Binotto says Leclerc and Vettel get on better than many people think. That might be true off track but I don't think anyone get's on with the "red mist" version of on track Vettel.

He is a very likable guy, really fast, very good at managing his tyres and thinking about strategy during the race. On top of that he's got tons of experience. He's waisting his talent by not looking at his weakness.

If Binotto doesn't replace him or force him to adress his problems, I think it would not look good on his leadership and the results woyld be on him.
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Old 21 Nov 2019, 23:41 (Ref:3942039)   #148
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I remember reading a quote from Webber saying that when all is fine, Vettel is his usual cheery self, yet when things go badly, he’s never seen anyone more childish. That is not surprising as we have seen in the past
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Old 22 Nov 2019, 00:49 (Ref:3942053)   #149
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I remember reading a quote from Webber saying that when all is fine, Vettel is his usual cheery self, yet when things go badly, he’s never seen anyone more childish. That is not surprising as we have seen in the past
Sounds like classic 'spoilt brat syndrome'.
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Old 22 Nov 2019, 08:50 (Ref:3942099)   #150
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I think that goes back to the way he had Red Bull behind him since the beginning.
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