How to fix F1?

[Peter Mallett]

Um. Thats why its called racing.

[loon]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

When was this ever the case?

1983

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by Racer65

(A)But where's the racing?

(B)Where are the wheel to wheel battles for lap after lap that we used to get?

(C)Maybe I'm just suffering from rose tinted glasses or the Hamilton generation fans have jaded me too much but I just don't see the excitement like I used to.

(D)The tech still fascinates me but I don't have to watch the races to get satisfaction from that.

(A) All over the world....all different series. I don't quite understand how you've missed it....

(B) I don't remember those in my 50+ years of following except on rare, wonderful, occasions. Links to them please. I know I'm getting older but my memory still works pretty well.

(C) That's a shame.

(D) Then why do they put it on the track? And, why do you follow F1 if that's the case?

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by loon

1983

I don't even remember lap to lap, blaaahhh, blaaahhh, blaaahhh. But, after 68 years of F1, if what you say is so true, you prove my point. You wait for that one exciting moment in time....

Heck, I just checked 1983 and the first 4 race finishes were further and further apart. I'm so (not) confused.

[S griffin]

To be fair John Watson and Niki Lauda came 1-2 after starting 22nd and 23rd

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by S griffin

To be fair John Watson and Niki Lauda came 1-2 after starting 22nd and 23rd

Long Beach 1983. That would be from the back of the grid in one of today's GPs.

[S griffin]

Today’s grid doesn’t even stretch that far

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Today’s grid doesn’t even stretch that far

22 cars in today's grid, 28 at Long Beach '83.

[S griffin]

Actually 26 plus about 4 non qualifiers

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Actually 26 plus about 4 non qualifiers

I forgot about that, so I did a bit of research and both Osella's failed to qualify.

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/d...ach-grand-prix

[wnut]

Originally Posted by jimclark

I don't even remember lap to lap, blaaahhh, blaaahhh, blaaahhh. But, after 68 years of F1, if what you say is so true, you prove my point. You wait for that one exciting moment in time....

Heck, I just checked 1983 and the first 4 race finishes were further and further apart. I'm so (not) confused.

The first five races of 1983 were won by 5 different constructors though ...

Big difference between winning a proper competition, and merely backing the winning margin down toward the end of the race, much easier too in cars that cannot overtake one another.

On a separate note, how long would Mercedes be allowed to keep their advantage/ current rules framework if they stopped sand bagging and won every race by two laps?

[chunterer]

I don't expect drivers taking and retaking each other everylap like in Formula Ford but I do expect cars to be able to enable drivers to pull off moves regularly and not get bogged down.

We had a season 2010 or 11 when first 7 races all had a different winner featuring 4 teams...

2003 was a tremendously close season between 3 different teams.

1981 and '82 were uber competitive with loads of actual racing.

Simplify the aero of the cars and open out some of the tracks. We've said it how many times?!

[S griffin]

2012 was the season of 7 different winners in the first 7 races.

I agree let’s have simplified aero and less gimmicks

[bjohnsonsmith]

When I first joined TenTenths, back in July 2008, that was pretty much the first thing I used to read on posts, "simplify the aero" and 10 years on it's still being posted.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

When I first joined TenTenths, back in July 2008, that was pretty much the first thing I used to read on posts, "simplify the aero" and 10 years on it's still being posted.

Still absolutely on the money today don't you think BJ?

All the FIA did was put bigger moveable wings on the cars for 2009, absolutely the wrong way to go, and the racing just got worse!

On a separate track, how about every team competing in F1 gets a vote in FOM and they use a secret ballot so that the manufacturers can't strong arm the teams they are supplying?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

22 cars in today's grid, 28 at Long Beach '83.

Only 22 cars if you count the doctor's car and pace car too, BJ.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by wnut

Only 21 cars if you count the doctor's car too, BJ.

So it is wnut, only 10 teams.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by wnut

Still absolutely on the money today don't you think BJ?

All the FIA did was put bigger moveable wings on the cars for 2009, absolutely the wrong way to go, and the racing just got worse!

On a separate track, how about every team competing in F1 gets a vote in FOM and they use a secret ballot so that the manufacturers can't strong arm the teams they are supplying?

Still on the money, wnut.

I don't remember 2009 being that bad but I always felt the rot started in 2010, particularly with the lack of overtaking and so in the following year, the FIA brought in DRS.

[S griffin]

I remember in 2009 they got rid of a lot of those horrible winglets. Shame they bought a lot of them back in 2017.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by wnut

All the FIA did was put bigger moveable wings on the cars for 2009, absolutely the wrong way to go, and the racing just got worse!

It was 2011 IIRC and DRS was introduced in response to McLaren's F-duct in 2010 which stalled the rear wing by a fluidic duct operated by the driver's knee! The other teams couldn't replicate that and had the drivers taking their hands off the steering wheel down the straights instead! DRS was seen as a far safer alternative.

Here is a great analysis of the 2019 front wing regulations: https://www.f1technical.net/news/21879

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

When I first joined TenTenths, back in July 2008, that was pretty much the first thing I used to read on posts, "simplify the aero" and 10 years on it's still being posted.

They did simplify it in 2009. And then will simplify the front wing in 2019 too (as above).

The complexity has only appeared in the areas of the car where there are no restrictions on the surfacing used (i.e., the unrestricted boxes where they can put whatever they want, which in 2018 are primarily front wing, under the nose, bargeboards and no restrictions on slots in the floor provided there is no bodywork above).

On the other hand, the minimum radius rule remains very effective at keeping the sidepods clear of winglets. All that is needed is a brave FIA to overrule the self-interested teams and extend that minimum radius rule over the whole car.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

When I first joined TenTenths, back in July 2008, that was pretty much the first thing I used to read on posts, "simplify the aero" and 10 years on it's still being posted.

You'd think people would have paid attention in those 10 years

But cognitive dissonance is easier.

[S griffin]

Hopefully we’ll find rules that make DRS obsolete

[Racer65]

Originally Posted by jimclark

(A) All over the world....all different series. I don't quite understand how you've missed it....

(B) I don't remember those in my 50+ years of following except on rare, wonderful, occasions. Links to them please. I know I'm getting older but my memory still works pretty well.

(C) That's a shame.

(D) Then why do they put it on the track? And, why do you follow F1 if that's the case?

(A) We're talking F1 here. I watch pretty much watch every racing series there is that broadcasts regularly apart from NASCAR. Plenty of those series give me the excitement that F1 used to do.

It may well be that my tastes have changed but, as I'm far from alone in saying that F1 isn't what it used to be, I don't think that's all there is to it.

Don't get your point about (D) at all? I find motorsport tech fascinating and I always build my own race cars from the ground up. I can follow the F1 tech in the specialist magazines (Racecar Engineering) without ever watching a single F1 race. Just because I like the tech doesn't mean I like everything that goes with it as far as F1 is concerned.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

They did simplify it in 2009. And then will simplify the front wing in 2019 too (as above).

The complexity has only appeared in the areas of the car where there are no restrictions on the surfacing used (i.e., the unrestricted boxes where they can put whatever they want, which in 2018 are primarily front wing, under the nose, bargeboards and no restrictions on slots in the floor provided there is no bodywork above).

On the other hand, the minimum radius rule remains very effective at keeping the sidepods clear of winglets. All that is needed is a brave FIA to overrule the self-interested teams and extend that minimum radius rule over the whole car.

https://www.wired.com/2009/03/changes-in-form/

"There are major changes in this area for 2009. The front wing is lower and wider, which will result in a reduction in downforce.
......
And, for the first time ever, drivers will be given control over adjusting the flaps on the front wing, with a change of up to six degrees. This probably means yet another dial on an already crowded steering wheel. Drivers will be limited to two adjustments per lap."