How to fix F1?

[S griffin]

There has been suggestions from fans and journalists to increase pit stop time, such as making the guns not so powerful or do what they did in A1GP where the crew isn’t allowed out till the car is stopped. And you can see why it’s been suggested. Pit stops are so quick now that they have become too important. Personally I would get rid of the two compound per race rule and let them run what they like and then we could maybe see more teams gambling on staying out and getting a result. It’s something I have always wanted to see changed

[Casper]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

The new wheels have an 18'' diameter. So regarding the 2022 car, one would have thought that been taken into account, when devising the new formula.

This article is worth reading,

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/a...tyres-for-2022

I blew that post, I meant the OD or roll out of the tyre fitted to the rim but the wheel itself gets shipped sans tyre so yes the logistics of moving them will change.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I find the comments about the larger size of wheels creating troubles for team with respect to travel considerations. I have no doubt that is true, but that seems a minor consideration (even if significant for those folks who are in charge of such things), but minor overall.

The reason for minimal travel is that it holds the car at an ideal designed height or as near to that as possible so that the aero is not too badly compromised and as we know aero is king and without the ability to control the height it becomes a big compromise. I am only speculating here but with the aero changes next year it seems that holding the car height even to tighter tolerances would be the ideal for the car designer. Given that more suspension travel is most likely a given it should be interesting to see what happens. At least one driver (Alan Jones) retired when the cars became so hard to sit in the drivers began to suffer back and health issues when sliding skirts were used.

[bathurst77]

f2 has managed the wheel size change with travel cases and pit stops so can f1

[P38 in workshop]

Originally Posted by bathurst77

f2 has managed the wheel size change with travel cases and pit stops so can f1

There is no technical challenge with larger flight cases with wheels.What nobody seems to have noticed is that for the same number of wheels,the total volume of cases will increase quite significantly.Remember the wheels are transported with no tyres in place and the cases will need to be 18/13ths of the current height.Which will occupy a correspondingly larger volume of the 747 freighter's load space and possibly one more aircraft per flyaway.Which is the sort of thing Greta Thunberg and her followers get very unhappy about.


The possibility of larger brake discs would then lead to larger braking forces,which leads to stronger wishbones and mounting points,possibly allied to ever more exotic materials in order to keep the already vast weight from creeping up even more.Or we see a new rule to mandate the use of less efficient braking materials.Which seems a great way to frustrate the creative brains in the business from doing anything other than a painting by numbers design within very limited parameters.Can anybody recall a single cost cutting notion that achieved the desired result,rather than diverting resources to searches for ever more trivial gains in areas that hadn't been limited at the time?

[Mike Harte]

I don't know what the logistics are for the wheels, but is it possible that they are transported along with the tyres in shipping containers for all the fly away races? This is why decisions about which tyres are to be used at any particular race has to be made well in advance to allow for the ships' travel time.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Casper

The reason for minimal travel is that it holds the car at an ideal designed height

You misunderstood my comment. I was speaking to the impact on team logistics (traveling between events) due to a larger wheel.

Richard

[Adam43]

I don’t think it is a case of “nobody has seemed to notice”, rather it isn’t important.

The size increase, which they’ll need new boxes isn’t important. The weight might be, but it will be offset by a lower weight tyre. Also the weight is defined by the rules, the bigger wheel might not be much heavier (?). The overall issue is the car weight.

Are brake disc sizes changing? Is there a rule for them?

I don’t think that braking performance would improve much if they do go bigger, but reliability might.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I don’t think it is a case of “nobody has seemed to notice”, rather it isn’t important.

The size increase, which they’ll need new boxes isn’t important. The weight might be, but it will be offset by a lower weight tyre. Also the weight is defined by the rules, the bigger wheel might not be much heavier (?). The overall issue is the car weight.

Are brake disc sizes changing? Is there a rule for them?

I don’t think that braking performance would improve much if they do go bigger, but reliability might.

Current regulations allow for a maximum of 278mm diameter for the brake discs. 2022 regulations allow for 325-330mm for front and 275-280 for rear. So they are bigger.

But I do generally agree that performance may not change much. I think the cars are generally traction limited under braking? I expect the increase in size is to counteract the increases in both weight/polar moment of the wheel/tire combo? I expect teams to fill up the inside of the wheel like they do now. Isn't part of that to ensure they are able to keep heat in the tires by moving heat from the brakes, to the wheels to the tires.

Richard

[Richard C]

Some additional techno-nerd content. I was doing some digging around to see if I could verify the "traction limited" aspect of F1 braking. It sounds like broadly this is true except I found some comments that in the early phase of braking when there remains a very high aero load on the car (and tires) that the pedal force required to lock the brakes might be quite high. Not that anyone would want to lock your brakes in high downforce situations! But the point being early on in braking, the car may not be traction limited.

Moving to a larger rotor may provide a non-obvious plus. The F1 engineers would know this more than myself, but as you increase the diameter of the rotor you potentially may increase the total swept area of the disk. Or... maybe more likely... you may just move the existing swept area out toward the perimeter of the disc (with a light weight rotor hat in the center). This would create a higher braking torque effect which may increase "feel" by requiring less overall pedal force. It also may reduce the pedal force required in that earlier phase of braking I call out above. How that may impact lap times, only the team might know.

Richard

[Adam43]

Nice summary there. Thanks.

[wnut]

Just how flexible is the front wing allowed to be?

Here is footage of Bottas' front wing in French GP qualifying, 38 seconds into the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcCmYhPpobU

The wing is vibrating all over the place and the individual elements appear to be collapsing onto one another.

[P38 in workshop]

I noticed the Red Bull doing something quite similar yesterday.In the case of the Mercedes I did wonder whether the constant fluttering and concomitant variation in downforce might be contributing to a loss of confidence in the feeling the car delivers to the driver.Only one of the Mercedes drivers seems able to perform well with this year's car.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I don't know what the logistics are for the wheels, but is it possible that they are transported along with the tyres in shipping containers for all the fly away races? This is why decisions about which tyres are to be used at any particular race has to be made well in advance to allow for the ships' travel time.

No, tyres are mounted at the race.



But as you say, the wheels (by the teams) and tyres (by Pirelli) are probably transported by ship to save money.

Originally Posted by Adam43

Also the weight is defined by the rules, the bigger wheel might not be much heavier (?).

The 18" tyre and wheel package is quite a bit heavier indeed.

330mm brakes are still quite small compared to most sportscar or other types of racing cars.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

But as you say, the wheels (by the teams) and tyres (by Pirelli) are probably transported by ship to save money.

For the flyaway races, the teams break down their transport into two types - critical and non-critical.
Critical parts include chassis, wheels, engines, wings, computers and IT racks. Noncritical parts includes components in the garage like jacks, tools, etc.
Non critical parts are maintained in sets to be shipped between global race locations.

This image from Red Bull shows that the wheels are included in the air transport for flyaway races:

[IMG]https://miro.medium.com/max/875/1*MI4W3TrOKtD6pXipY7iXDg.jpeg[/IMG]

For 2020, Geoff Simmonds said 'My first pack-up, for Australia in ’98, we sent 12 tonnes – that was everything – no sea freight. Now it’s 34 tonnes plus another eight by sea. [The eight tonnes] is fundamental equipment you need for the weekend. Garage panelling, grid trolleys, catering equipment, fridges, cookers, consumable items, tyre movers, desks, chairs… Anything that’s not going to change'

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Also the weight is defined by the rules, the bigger wheel might not be much heavier (?).

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

The 18" tyre and wheel package is quite a bit heavier indeed.

That’s in the rules really. Yes, bigger is often heavier, but it’s a standard part so it’s less what they decide to do. Neither are as light as they could be.

Do we know the difference?

It’s immaterial though. Unless the rules change to increase the overall weight of the car is. ???

Originally Posted by Adam43

The overall issue is the car weight.

The overall weight to transport is the issue and ultimately that is influenced by the overall weight of the cars. Which are getting higher anyway. Is some of that change in the rules due to increase tyre and wheel combined weight.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Adam43

It’s immaterial though. Unless the rules change to increase the overall weight of the car is. ???



The overall weight to transport is the issue and ultimately that is influenced by the overall weight of the cars. Which are getting higher anyway. Is some of that change in the rules due to increase tyre and wheel combined weight.

They have increased the overall weight of the car.

Now the already dodgy tyres have an even heavier race car to support.

Win, win - not.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Some additional techno-nerd content. I was doing some digging around to see if I could verify the "traction limited" aspect of F1 braking. It sounds like broadly this is true except I found some comments that in the early phase of braking when there remains a very high aero load on the car (and tires) that the pedal force required to lock the brakes might be quite high. Not that anyone would want to lock your brakes in high downforce situations! But the point being early on in braking, the car may not be traction limited.

Moving to a larger rotor may provide a non-obvious plus. The F1 engineers would know this more than myself, but as you increase the diameter of the rotor you potentially may increase the total swept area of the disk. Or... maybe more likely... you may just move the existing swept area out toward the perimeter of the disc (with a light weight rotor hat in the center). This would create a higher braking torque effect which may increase "feel" by requiring less overall pedal force. It also may reduce the pedal force required in that earlier phase of braking I call out above. How that may impact lap times, only the team might know.

Richard

Braking in a race car is hugely different to anything you have experienced or done in a road car, in fact it is a very hard thing to get your head around when the driver starts out and hasn't done it before. Basically the first application is literally jumping on the brake pedal hard enough to try and break it and then modulate and reduce the application if needed to prevent lock up. The data line should be like looking at a very straight descent with no angle to it if done correctly.

[bathurst77]

Just free wheeling now for the fun of it.
3 car teams with prequalifying.
IF teams were either required or given the choice of running a 3rd car we would have a field of up to 30 cars. but only allow 24 or 26 to go to qualy. So they have to prequalify on friday or sat morning practice . very common in 70s and earlier. Most of the expense in building and running a car is in R&D, the first car costs millions, the second much less and the 3rd, even less

For the constructors championship, the 3rd car could be non points or points be "your two best finishers on the day" or points divided by number of cars.

This would put more cars on track, more action and make practice more interesting.
There are a lot of youngsters who are in other categories waiting their chance.
Maybe allow a team 2 full season drivers and the 3rd car cannot have same driver more than half season or something.

This could be an additional revenue stream for the teams, with pay drivers for one race or part of the season. It could also be allowed different livery and sponsorship for more income. Even allow changing the 3rd cars livery and sponsorship between races so they can pick up a one off pay driver or local sponsorship and paint job for 1 or 2 races.

Lastly it would give candidates chance to show their stuff in a race and for engineers to test new ideas in a race without any pressure if it doesnt pay off.

[Casper]

In this day of professional motor sport and as much as I would like to see over subscribed grids no team would agree to the idea that could see them sitting in the garage and missing the race, the sponsors would not be too impressed to say the least. Good idea just not practical these days.

[P38 in workshop]

I fundamentally disagree.The essence of the business is competition and if the team can't get through qualifying,they go home.It would also help to absorb some of the personnel who will be displaced by the budget cap and open up more seats to allow talented drivers to get on the grid-if only occasionally.The switch to an American style franchise system is a dreadful idea that allows the producers of mediocre,or worse,cars to evade the consequences and remain in business.I would really like a return to the days of 40 cars on the entry list but reluctantly and sadly accept that it won't happen.In the meantime we look likely to see a continuation of the trend to spec car racing with only microscopic deviations from a tightly controlled norm allowed-until they get banned.

[S griffin]

I wouldn’t mind seeing a few more teams on the grid. 20 cars ain’t enough in my view. 26 would be better. It would help get more talented youngsters on the grid like de Vries and Illot, as well as means we are less likely to get a situation where a talented star like Hulk is pushed off the grid

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

I fundamentally disagree.The essence of the business is competition and if the team can't get through qualifying,they go home.It would also help to absorb some of the personnel who will be displaced by the budget cap and open up more seats to allow talented drivers to get on the grid-if only occasionally.The switch to an American style franchise system is a dreadful idea that allows the producers of mediocre,or worse,cars to evade the consequences and remain in business.I would really like a return to the days of 40 cars on the entry list but reluctantly and sadly accept that it won't happen.In the meantime we look likely to see a continuation of the trend to spec car racing with only microscopic deviations from a tightly controlled norm allowed-until they get banned.

All those lovely F1 cars!!

It was great, and even the rubbish ones still gave plenty of decent drivers their big chance in F1.

There is no doubt at all that the cost and the blatant manufacturer bias in F1 these days is why we don't have anymore teams.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by bathurst77

Just free wheeling now for the fun of it.
3 car teams with prequalifying.
IF teams were either required or given the choice of running a 3rd car we would have a field of up to 30 cars. but only allow 24 or 26 to go to qualy. So they have to prequalify on friday or sat morning practice .

Significant risk of someone like a Haas who is struggling to be effectively pushed totally out of an event and eventually F1.

Originally Posted by Casper

In this day of professional motor sport and as much as I would like to see over subscribed grids no team would agree to the idea that could see them sitting in the garage and missing the race, the sponsors would not be too impressed to say the least. Good idea just not practical these days.

Agree. Nobody would sign up for this.

Richard

[john ruston]

Looking at this year didn’t know it needed fixing!
As for idea of increasing teams. How does that work with money as at least three teams are being kept going with very rich benefactors
Just more golden sperm drivers!