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Old 21 Dec 2009, 00:04 (Ref:2602998)   #76
krt917
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Originally Posted by boyndie View Post
I was at every Renault race this year and quite honestly, I must have been watching different races to your correspondant however, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
Fair enough. Without speaking to my man, and having a look through his reports, I won't go into the season any further than to say remember that Dean did it with little pre-season testing and he missed the first round. I was at Silverstone, which James dominated, but - as I said - the idea is that it is the award test performances that determine the winner.

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If you are suggesting that the gap in their relative experience isn`t as big as it first appears is nonsense, karting has no comparison to aero cars and for James to adapt and achieve success in less than 2 years compared to Deans 5 or 6 years is remarkable.
It's not so much the experience in the aero cars themselves. That's more of an issue for Formula Ford drivers, but after two years of FR, plus several F3 tests, I would expect a good driver - which James undoubtedly is - to be up to speed. Obviously Dean's extra experience of car racing will help when it comes to things like car set-up, but high-level karting is also very professional and means that drivers learn certain things about how to be competitive early on. Stepping in to cars with experience of high-level karting is not the same as being a total rookie.

Remember as well that James's two years in FR UK have been with Fortec, who always run at the front. Dean won FBMW UK in his second season of car racing, then struggled with a less fancied team in FR UK in 2006 before fighting for the title in 2007. Then it was off to the Eurocup, where I think even Fortec would admit they are not the force they are in the UK, and then he took the title with Manor. It's not as though Dean has squandered too many chances.

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Isn`t it strange why Lewis never won the award? Perhaps he was seen to be the driver at that time who looks the most likely to make it.
He wasn't eligible because he tested an F3 car beforehand, so couldn't even be chosen to come to the tests.

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In answer to your last sentence, I strongly believe that the award should be offered to first time candidates only.
Fair enough, we'll just agree to disagree on that one.

One issue we do have is how much experience drivers have of the cars when they come to the test. Ideally we'd want them to have no F3 testing so they all come to it raw, but that's difficult to police and might harm drivers' chances of getting a deal sorted for the following year (teams like to start testing drivers asap). And that's the last thing we'd want. It's always a compromise and we just have to make a call on the info we have in front of us - performance weighed up with experience.
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Old 21 Dec 2009, 02:27 (Ref:2603029)   #77
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This has turned into an interesting debate with some helpful comments coming from krt917. It's good that he is prepared to come on here and join in the discussion in a logical and well-argued way, so thanks.

Can I just clear up one point. I think Lewis Hamilton voluntarily ruled himself out of consideration in the year when he would have been eligible on the the basis that he was a McLaren supported driver and to put himself up for an award with which McLaren is associated would have been wrong.

Either that or he deliberately did the last BF3 round of the season at Brands Hatch, which had the same effect.
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Old 21 Dec 2009, 14:27 (Ref:2603211)   #78
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My recollection is that Lewis stood down voluntarily from the Mclaren Autosport awards.

Very interesting responses from KRT, I had an interest in UK FF in 2009 and was suprised at year end to find my idea of a Rookie did not correspond to those of the reviewer in Autosport so I am not suprised at some of KRT thought processes.

In my opinion if you have raced competively in high level karting and that competitiveness was genuine and not equipment related (Which does happen in Karting) you are probably going to be quick in single seaters and the experience in cars is probably over done at the National level once you have completed year 1 in general you should have sufficient expereince in FR or FF or similar classes, for me good luck to Dean Smith he is clearly a grafter and perhaps was not as fashionable as some may like but neither was Nigel Mansell and the sport desperately needs more like Nigel.
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Old 21 Dec 2009, 15:14 (Ref:2603233)   #79
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Lewis did, I believe, an F3 race to disqualify himself, though I don't know whether it was his idea or McLaren's.

Peter, as I was the FFord reviewer it seems only fair for me to explain my use of 'rookie'! I think of it in two ways. The first is a rookie to the series, such as Josef Newgarden was in UKFF this year. In his case, he was also new to the tracks.

The other is a total rookie to car racing, as Daniel Cammish was. In fairness, there could be a third category, which is a rookie who hasn't raced or karted before, but that's pretty rare.

I agree with you that top karters do tend to get up to speed in single-seaters, though of course there is no guarantee!
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Old 21 Dec 2009, 17:08 (Ref:2603279)   #80
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Kevin, I think the circuit rookie is my point as in UK FF the top guys test a lot and the better drivers learn the circuits fast so the circuit knowledge is not a huge thing, also the car development is very limited so test days do become a bit of a pounding round session which provides circuit knowledge, Dan did 200 laps in a day of Donington club in one pre-season test and never went any quicker later in the season.

So to conclude my argument a circuit rookie with lots of single seater miles to me is not a true rookie and to some extent the use of the word rookie when set against Josef did devalue some other competitors and also in the end had the unfortunate effect of devaluing the overall champion who was a very worthy winner, I dont think it really helped Josef as he was the first to admit he was not a rookie,

Anyway enough on that,after 32 years of buying Autosport I dont think it gives me a right to pressure the editorial team, actually thats an idea what about the odd guest editor there are plenty of people on this forum who might like a chance, I am sure Haymarket could stand a few libel actions!!!
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Old 21 Dec 2009, 17:37 (Ref:2603294)   #81
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An interesting point is that Fortec got all 4 of their cars on the podium at least once during the season, indeed until the penultimate weekend they had two drivers in with a realistic chance of winning the title. At Manor everything was concentrated on Dean and the level of the other cars was significantly less.
Fortec won the teams title, and even if they had split their entry, by engineer, into Fortec A & Fortec B they would of been in the top 3 places in the teams championship.
I think that says a lot for the quality and integrity of the Fortec team and their people.
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Old 21 Dec 2009, 17:59 (Ref:2603305)   #82
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An interesting point is that Fortec got all 4 of their cars on the podium at least once during the season, indeed until the penultimate weekend they had two drivers in with a realistic chance of winning the title. At Manor everything was concentrated on Dean and the level of the other cars was significantly less.
Fortec won the teams title, and even if they had split their entry, by engineer, into Fortec A & Fortec B they would of been in the top 3 places in the teams championship.
I think that says a lot for the quality and integrity of the Fortec team and their people.
I think it says a lot more about the level of their drivers, as both Manor and Fortec are good teams, but without the driver, there is not much they can do. If Manor did not get Dean then everyone would be saying how terrible a team they are.
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Old 21 Dec 2009, 18:53 (Ref:2603322)   #83
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Which raises the question, why do drivers choose to sign with Team A rather than Team B?

This season Oli Webb obviously thought that Fortec would give him the best chance of winning the championship, he would not of made that decision if he wasn't confident that Fortec would give him equal equipment. until Dean signed with Manor neither Manor or CRS had been able to attract a top level driver.

If a driver is serious about wanting to win a series, and he has the funding in place, he will always sign with the team most likely to give him the best chance.
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Old 27 Dec 2009, 11:55 (Ref:2605345)   #84
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Originally Posted by Peter Cammish View Post
Kevin, I think the circuit rookie is my point as in UK FF the top guys test a lot and the better drivers learn the circuits fast so the circuit knowledge is not a huge thing, also the car development is very limited so test days do become a bit of a pounding round session which provides circuit knowledge, Dan did 200 laps in a day of Donington club in one pre-season test and never went any quicker later in the season.

So to conclude my argument a circuit rookie with lots of single seater miles to me is not a true rookie.
Fair enough. I guess I just tend to use a wider meaning for rookie - basically if a guy hasn't done that series before I'd call him a rookie, but obviously further comment and details are necessary to separate those with previous experience of single-seaters (e.g Josef), those only with karting (Daniel) and others who haven't raced anything.

I agree with you that testing is very important for learning circuits. In Formula Ford the top teams will test drivers as much as possible so drivers in those squads don't have to learn circuits over a race weekend.

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Anyway enough on that,after 32 years of buying Autosport I dont think it gives me a right to pressure the editorial team, actually thats an idea what about the odd guest editor there are plenty of people on this forum who might like a chance, I am sure Haymarket could stand a few libel actions!!!
No worries about the pressure - happy to have a well-argued debate, though I rather doubt the guest editor would work too well at Autosport!
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Old 27 Dec 2009, 12:59 (Ref:2605363)   #85
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I read comments made by miniman, and agree, then see the response it attracted. Thank god there is someone out there like miniman who actually says it as it is. For sure, Dean Smith is a good driver and congrats to him in getting the award however, the harsh reality is that Dean has been around for many years, has far more experience than the other candidates and had a huge advantage. I just dont get the autosports awards, to me it is to recognise and award the next possible british formula one champion or top of any major series, not too act as a consolation prize for someone who has reach his peak. Smith is someone who has been tested and failed before and on one day can prove himself slightly quicker in a car he already has experience in or if he could do more press ups or whatever they do, just crazy. The criteria should be changed, namely only new award candidates only, none of which have ever raced the test cars and that have very limted car experience but with success in what they do.Win or lose, the prestige will help some talented young drivers, give them a chance.The award should never be given to the person who needs the money more. Its so obvious that previous experience is not taken into account, Dean has been around for years, yes he won the BMW championship years ago but only recently inherited the renault uk title due to calado`s mechanical failures and his mysterious last round penalty from pole to start from 9th or 10th!! More race wins, more poles, more fastest laps in only his second year in cars, these are award winning facts. For me and probably many honest others, the best race driver and best current british prospect, by far, didnt win the award!!
Thank you Boyndie. Actually, I feel that Runshaw's comments, berating me as a fool in front of everyone is actally more rude than anything I had to say about Dean. Surely a forum is where people should be allowed to state their opinion? Anyway, enough of this. I won't be reading or posting on Ten Tenths again.
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Old 29 Dec 2009, 11:47 (Ref:2605923)   #86
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Thank you Boyndie. Actually, I feel that Runshaw's comments, berating me as a fool in front of everyone is actally more rude than anything I had to say about Dean. Surely a forum is where people should be allowed to state their opinion? Anyway, enough of this. I won't be reading or posting on Ten Tenths again.
miniman, just a quick comment relating to your last post.

Everyone is enitled to express their own opinion, as you have just done yourself! As long as it doesn't contravene forum etiquette and general accepted rules of behaviour posters can disagree with either you, runshaw or anyone else.


Please everyone continue the thread in the spirit of the forum rules or I will close it!
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