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Old 1 Dec 2021, 17:07 (Ref:4086171)   #1
TuteZaek
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Relative pace of argentine series cars

So, i was doing nothing on internet while working and just occurred to me that San Juan Villicum already hosted 4 of the big 5 series of Argentina, with the last remaning one, the Turismo Nacional, going there on 12/12

So, as a professional procastinator, did my duty and searched for the lap times for all the races and found a kinda weird thing with the Top Race V6 performance. To explain, here are the qualy times of al the series (including TN C3 2020) at Villicum

Turismo Nacional C3 (Naturally Aspirated 2L I4, Arround 280-300 hp, low aero FWD, NA Carrera): 1;52.543 *

Top Race V6 (Naturally Aspirated 3L V6 Arround 380-390, aero heavy on drag reduction and downforce, RWD, PIRELLI (?)**: 1;49.474


TC Pick Up: (Naturally Aspirated 3.1 I6, arround 450 HP, Aero...no thanks, RWD, PIRELLI) 1;47.884

Super TC2000 (Turbo 2L I4, 390h hp on qualy, Aero Heavy, FWD, PIRELLI): 1;47.245

TC (NA 3.1 I6, arround 470hp, weird aero, high downforce and drag reduction convined with old shapes, RWD, NA CARRERA): 1;41.515

By reference WSBK pole was 1;37.617, but using the bike configuration of the circuit, while Argentine SBK1000 pole was 1;42.859 on that same configuration

Looking at that, appart from the bonkers time of the TC (there is some black magic going there) all the others seems close enough, especially the TR, STC and Pick ups, with this one actually surprising me, those bricks with wheels can drive.

But then i started to look close to Top Race times, and they are too slow for the car, they should have the advantage over the STC2000 and the pickups based on configuration, being race specific silhouettes using basically the same tires as the others, because, while more powerfull, the trucks give a lot of advantage with its high drag low downforce setup, and the wheels arent as optimal, in terms of dimentions for the car. And the STC2000 has an amazing amount of development for its chasis, but they are still production basted, and not only that, the power figures are similar, with the "super" cars being FWD, a less optimal configuration for racing

Some of it could be attributed to Villicum being a new track for the series, after all, the TN C3 improved by 3 seconds on 2020 from its first visit on 2019, but then, the PickUps went there for fist time too.

And then, i looked to the TC Mouras time: 1;46.349, for a series with similar power and configuration (it uses the old pushrod TC engine, with restrictors, should be less than 390 hp, and also RWD, but with NA tires, wich should*** be harder/slower than the pirellis) and they gain 3 seconds on the TR, while also racing there for first time (and mostly racing on one circuit, La Plata)

There is something kinda wrong with the TRv6

*2020 qualy time
** The techichal datasheet mentions Dunlop Direzzas, but i think its old, pirelli being an sponsor of the series this year, if they are using the dunlops, maybe there is where the diferecence lies.
*** Its the common nuance, and taking into account the TC 1000km, that tires are overbuilt/harder than they need)

Last edited by TuteZaek; 1 Dec 2021 at 17:18.
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Old 1 Dec 2021, 18:27 (Ref:4086182)   #2
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Based on the power I am surprised by the big gap between TC and TC Pick Up.
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Old 1 Dec 2021, 18:50 (Ref:4086186)   #3
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Originally Posted by FIRE View Post
Based on the power I am surprised by the big gap between TC and TC Pick Up.
Well, one has almost all the tricks short of active aero and ground effects aplied tho a 60s body.

The others are literal bricks with an engine and almost no downforce. The TC Pista, wich uses almost the same spec engine is 4 seconds faster, but then the tires are different, harder compound. Most of that gap comes from the corners.

That said, the gap between the steps of the ladder of the ACTC is really well thought, almost 2 seconds from each other.
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Old 2 Dec 2021, 04:32 (Ref:4086225)   #4
hondafan37
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Your analysis is very good, I love these kinds of comparisons.
I honestly thought that the Super TC2000 and the Top Race were closer to the TC.
One question that arose for me is What was the weather like on each of those days? because we know that San Juan usually has very strong winds on some occasions.
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Old 2 Dec 2021, 10:27 (Ref:4086236)   #5
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Looking at that, the 2021 TC (circuit récord for cars) pole was on a really good day It seems. The prior year times were arround 1;43/1;44 for each race, while on the training sessions of this year "Carrera de las Estrellas" was on the 1;43 range, but since there was no qualy, i asume it was on race trim. 2019, also on the no Qualy race had an 1;42, while on 2018 the qualy was on the 1;48, but was the first race ever there, and i think the circuit was different.

STC2000 antecedents had a 1;48.881 on 2020

TNC3 a 1;55 on 2019

Those are the ones with more than one race there, the TC having the most, but with two races whitout qualy, most of the times are arround the 1;43 mark, and, aside the first 1;48, the 1;44 seems the outlier (and the monster 1;41), that race was on 12/12 and maybe was too hot?


That said, the ACTC site has a lot of material, its a stadistics junkie dream.

For example, there is a "material previo" pdf published for each race, showing all the season tracks with its correspondent record time, the pilots, and the championship standing till that race.
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Old 2 Dec 2021, 10:36 (Ref:4086237)   #6
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Every 2021 circuit best time, with the date of the record.



The Buenos Aires avg speed is nuts, Villicum Is the slowest in terms of speed
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Last edited by TuteZaek; 2 Dec 2021 at 10:43.
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Old 2 Dec 2021, 18:17 (Ref:4086329)   #7
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So, more weird things.

Look at that Toay laptime for the TC: 1;14.125

The Super TC2000 with the 2.0t: 1;14.359

The Super TC2000 with the V8: 1;14.472

The TN C3: 1;22.803

The TC with the old pushrods was 1;15.469

That means that the TC isnt as confortable on pure speed tracks, maybe the drag Is too much, which goes against the common perception.

But seing how little changed the times between the V8 and 2.0 on the stc2000 and, the pushrod vs the "multivalvulas" maybe the circuit is limiting the cars? (In fact, i would have bet that the RPE v8 was faster than the new orecas on the stc2000)
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Old 2 Dec 2021, 19:15 (Ref:4086344)   #8
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Originally Posted by TuteZaek View Post
Every 2021 circuit best time, with the date of the record.



The Buenos Aires avg speed is nuts, Villicum Is the slowest in terms of speed
TC at Buenos Aires 1m32s

At the TCR endurance race couple weeks ago the pole position was around 1m21s. To be exactly it was the total time of driver and co-driver: 2m43s, divide this by 2 and you get 1m21s.

Big gap so assume they use different layout.
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Old 2 Dec 2021, 20:35 (Ref:4086349)   #9
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Originally Posted by FIRE View Post
TC at Buenos Aires 1m32s

At the TCR endurance race couple weeks ago the pole position was around 1m21s. To be exactly it was the total time of driver and co-driver: 2m43s, divide this by 2 and you get 1m21s.

Big gap so assume they use different layout.


The TC time is on the 12 circuit, a high speed 5.6km long variant, runs along te perimeter, and omits all of the slower zones, Is normally used when there Is a lot of cars.

TCR SA used the 8 variant, a more technical 3.3km layout, that omits the two longests straights and salotto*

The STC2000 started 2021 season on the 8, pole was 1;19.681,

*A stupid 850m long high speed córner between the two straights, the world needs F1 at the 12
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Old 3 Dec 2021, 02:25 (Ref:4086379)   #10
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Originally Posted by TuteZaek View Post
So, more weird things.

Look at that Toay laptime for the TC: 1;14.125

The Super TC2000 with the 2.0t: 1;14.359

The Super TC2000 with the V8: 1;14.472

The TN C3: 1;22.803

The TC with the old pushrods was 1;15.469

That means that the TC isnt as confortable on pure speed tracks, maybe the drag Is too much, which goes against the common perception.

But seing how little changed the times between the V8 and 2.0 on the stc2000 and, the pushrod vs the "multivalvulas" maybe the circuit is limiting the cars? (In fact, i would have bet that the RPE v8 was faster than the new orecas on the stc2000)
Your analysis is magnific, thanks for all the details you have published
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Old 3 Dec 2021, 02:32 (Ref:4086382)   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FIRE View Post
TC at Buenos Aires 1m32s

At the TCR endurance race couple weeks ago the pole position was around 1m21s. To be exactly it was the total time of driver and co-driver: 2m43s, divide this by 2 and you get 1m21s.

Big gap so assume they use different layout.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuteZaek View Post
The TC time is on the 12 circuit, a high speed 5.6km long variant, runs along te perimeter, and omits all of the slower zones, Is normally used when there Is a lot of cars.

TCR SA used the 8 variant, a more technical 3.3km layout, that omits the two longests straights and salotto*

The STC2000 started 2021 season on the 8, pole was 1;19.681,

*A stupid 850m long high speed córner between the two straights, the world needs F1 at the 12
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aut%C3...an_G%C3%A1lvez

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Old 4 Dec 2021, 19:01 (Ref:4086600)   #12
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There are many additional factors:


* Weight
* Gravity center* Wind

* Air and track temperature
* Green vs sticky surface
* Drivers (the Top Race has lost talent)
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Old 4 Dec 2021, 19:45 (Ref:4086613)   #13
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Yeah, i tried to left drivers out, but Is obviously a factor.


Even then, Azar, the TR championship leader, also runs on TC mouras, sadly he broke the engine on San Juan so never got a time to compare.
As of weight, the TCs (and the pickups) are a little bit heavier than the others, at arround 1350kg, the top race goes for 1300kg and the STC2000 1200kg. The turismo nacional C3 goes for the lightweight crown with 1078 kg.

Note: just now Todino broke the villicum récord with a 1;41.474. still 2 groups to run

Last edited by TuteZaek; 4 Dec 2021 at 20:13.
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