New FIA Formula Two series for 2009!!

[Pete Fenelon]

Originally Posted by johntt

Hadn't thought about that. Speculation on Midweek Motorsport this week suggested Panoz DP01s.

Grin. I've often advocated DP01s with Grand-Am engines as a cheap and spectacular formula, but the DP01 is not going to be the new F2 - for a start it's a ground-effect car and the ITT specifies a flat-bottom. It'll also be a heavy old thing to grumble around with 'only' 400BHP, and it'll probably want a completely new fuel system for petrol

[duke_toaster]

Surely they could build their own low-tech car? It could even use an aluminium honeycomb chassis like FPA ...

Here's my demented idea, Max wouldn't ever go for anything like this and it wouldn't necessarily work. Oh well, here it goes (Mods, if other people start posting their idea I apologize profusely for thread derailment and encourage it to be split).

New Formula 2 proposal

Calendar : Runs on undercard of European F1 rounds (not Istanbul) plus Pau.
FP and Quali : Free practice of 45 minutes on Friday, followed by 30 minutes of qualifing on Saturday.
Races : Two back-to-back races of 40 minutes with a fifteen minute intermission. Second race has a rolling start (race 1 order) and only race 2 award points. Like NASCAR's intermission system for the CTS (this rule means teams won't need pit stop specialists and TV can go for a commerical break).
Cost cutting measure : There will be limits in the amount of repairs that can be done to a car during a weekend as an anti-Yuji Ide and cost cutting measure.

Rough outline of cars

Chassis supply : Chassis makers run the cars like Max's proposed Formula 2 - HOWEVER Formula 2 will not be a single make series. Chassis makers may a rolling example to the FIA. If the chassis is approved for F2, the chassis must be available for a team that wants it for a season at the single price agreed - Max's figure of €200,000 is probably impossible. Similar to Max's idea there will be a lottery of all the drivers of that type of chassis+engine pairing to decide who gets which chassis.
Standard parts : Much of the car will be provided in a Formula 2 Kit - a gearbox (6 speed H-pattern to cut costs), a spec aero package (single element full width front and rear wings), brakes and tyres (rock hard slicks, three sets per weekend)
Engines : Straight from the road car 3.5 V6 units fitted with a standardized supercharger.
Engine equalisation : Prior to the season the FIA will run the engines on a rolling road. If there is any major discrepancy in power (+ or - 5% of the average) the FIA reserve the right to adjust rev limits, blower pressures or compression ratios of engines.
Engine rebuilds : Engine rebuilds during weekends will be banned and engines cannot be replaced unless they are destroyed during the season.
Engine and chassis pairings : Each chassis type must have two engines available unless it is a factory team or a Formula One constructor building them.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Road engines, approve first chassis and performance equalization? Might as well call if Grand Am Formula Two! I'll dump my suggestions here tomorrow.

[duke_toaster]

Jimmy, the chassis approval is more of a measure for crash testing and safety than anything else. Not a matter of "no, that's banned because it's too fast".

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Right. Here's my thoughts then.

Engines - Basically LMP2-ish. 3.4L NA engines and max 8 cylinders, 4.0L for production based engines (min 1000/yr); max 2.0L and six cylinders if you turbocharge the engine. An engine should last the season or thereabouts. Engine supply cannot be exclusive, it has to be offered at the same price to all teams.

Chassis - Has to fit an imaginary box yay wide and yay long. Cannot have any winglets or other such things; front and rear wing both has to fit their own boxes. Rear wing shall only have a single plane. It is up to the team if they want to buy a chassi or build their own. Teams are free to use any chassis which comply to the regulations, regardless if they were constructed for another series to begin with, with one exception: automotive manufacturers who produce X number of cars each year (basically bigger than a specialist independet manuf.) are not allowed to be constructors.

Gearboxes - Nothing too advanced. There must be no more than six forward gears and one reverse gear, and they must be operated by a proper gear stick.

Tires - Slicks will be used, and there will be a single tire supplier. These tires must be quite hard and not have much grip.

Entrants - Automotive manufacturers and Formula One entrants may not run Formula Two teams. A team is free to run between one and two cars. Entry fees are paid either for the full season at a discount or round by round. A team is free to enter as many or as few rounds as they like. There is no limit on driver replacements, neither is there a limit to the number of entries for a weekend. The top thirteen teams from the previous season's team's championship table are guaranteed a place in regular qualifying. If the entries from the top thirteen teams does not reach 26 cars for the weekend cars will be added from teams that placed 14th and below until 26 cars have a guaranteed place in the qualifying session. Those who do not have a guaranteed place in the qualifying session will run pre-qualifying at Friday morning, where eight cars will advance to take part in the main qualifying session. The top 30 cars in main qualifying qualifies for the race, with the exception of Monaco and Pau, where the top 26 qualify. There will not be any limits on repairs, as accidents do happen. At the halfway point of the season the team's championship table as it is then will be used instead of previous season's to determine guaranteed qualifying slots.

Races - Held on Saturdays supporting nine European F1 events, except for the standalone Pau race which his run on a Sunday. The races are to be 80 minutes long, with no mandatory pit stops and a ban on refueling.

Championships - Points will be awared to the top ten finishers (16-12-10-8-7-5-4-3-2-1). Two championships will be awarded, the driver's and team's championships.

[META4]

the complete description is here

http://www.formule2.com/2008/F2/F2_AppelOffre.pdf

[Pete Fenelon]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

Right. Here's my thoughts then.

Engines - Basically LMP2-ish. 3.4L NA engines and max 8 cylinders, 4.0L for production based engines (min 1000/yr); max 2.0L and six cylinders if you turbocharge the engine. An engine should last the season or thereabouts. Engine supply cannot be exclusive, it has to be offered at the same price to all teams.

A good start. There are plenty of possibilities around and a bit of variation.

Chassis - Has to fit an imaginary box yay wide and yay long. Cannot have any winglets or other such things; front and rear wing both has to fit their own boxes. Rear wing shall only have a single plane. It is up to the team if they want to buy a chassi or build their own. Teams are free to use any chassis which comply to the regulations, regardless if they were constructed for another series to begin with, with one exception: automotive manufacturers who produce X number of cars each year (basically bigger than a specialist independet manuf.) are not allowed to be constructors.

Ground-effect I hope, with an FIA-mandated sidepod profile and ride height, to minimise the dependency on wings and to allow them to race close. GP2 works well with ground-effects.

Gearboxes - Nothing too advanced. There must be no more than six forward gears and one reverse gear, and they must be operated by a proper gear stick.

Much as I'd like this I think it'd have to be at least a paddle shift to have credibility as a gateway to F1.

Tires - Slicks will be used, and there will be a single tire supplier. These tires must be quite hard and not have much grip.

Yes please.

The races are to be 80 minutes long, with no mandatory pit stops and a ban on refueling.

Yes please! - cars ideally to run on some form of green-ish fuel, too. E85 perhaps. Only problem is, 80 minutes is nearly as long as some "Grands" Prix these days ;P

Championships - Points will be awared to the top ten finishers (16-12-10-8-7-5-4-3-2-1). Two championships will be awarded, the driver's and team's championships.

Might even be worth emphasising the value of wins more, but that's not a bad points spread.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

I left ground effect out as I want cars to slide around a lot, which is not how you make a ground effect car go fast. And yes, the cars shouldn't be very aero dependent.

And yes, 80 minutes is about the length of some GP's these days. Therefore GP length should be increased to about 1hr50 - 2hrs, and get its own rules overhaul (which includes a ban on refueling). The GP calendar should be reconfigured to include better races, but I'll leave that to another thread.

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

Right. Here's my thoughts then.

Engines - Basically LMP2-ish. 3.4L NA engines and max 8 cylinders, 4.0L for production based engines (min 1000/yr); max 2.0L and six cylinders if you turbocharge the engine. An engine should last the season or thereabouts. Engine supply cannot be exclusive, it has to be offered at the same price to all teams.

Sounds sensible but some sort of equivilance testing a la GT3 might be an idea.

Chassis - Has to fit an imaginary box yay wide and yay long. Cannot have any winglets or other such things; front and rear wing both has to fit their own boxes. Rear wing shall only have a single plane.

I'd like to see spec aero, mainly as a cost cutting measure.

Gearboxes - Nothing too advanced. There must be no more than six forward gears and one reverse gear, and they must be operated by a proper gear stick.

I'd add the word "standardized" to that as well myself, as a cost cutting thing.

Tires - Slicks will be used, and there will be a single tire supplier. These tires must be quite hard and not have much grip.

Sounds sensible.

Entrants - Automotive manufacturers and Formula One entrants may not run Formula Two teams. A team is free to run between one and two cars. Entry fees are paid either for the full season at a discount or round by round. A team is free to enter as many or as few rounds as they like. There is no limit on driver replacements, neither is there a limit to the number of entries for a weekend.

Sounds sensible apart from that I would allow three car teams.

The top 30 cars in main qualifying qualifies for the race, with the exception of Monaco and Pau, where the top 26 qualify. There will not be any limits on repairs, as accidents do happen. At the halfway point of the season the team's championship table as it is then will be used instead of previous season's to determine guaranteed qualifying slots.

Maybe do it after three weekends rather than half way.

Races - Held on Saturdays supporting nine European F1 events, except for the standalone Pau race which his run on a Sunday. The races are to be 80 minutes long, with no mandatory pit stops and a ban on refueling.

That way teams would need pit stop specialists (unless the tyres are hard enough to do 80 minutes in which case they would handle like a bathtub full of lard on an icerink unless they were rather aero dependant). And would fuel tanks of that size be safe?

Championships - Points will be awared to the top ten finishers (16-12-10-8-7-5-4-3-2-1). Two championships will be awarded, the driver's and team's championships.

Maybe only count the team's worst result in each weekend and have a constructor's championship (best and worst count).

As for current GPs, I don't feel comfortable with drivers racing for 2 hours around Bahrain, I appreciate that races were longer.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Sounds sensible but some sort of equivilance testing a la GT3 might be an idea.

As far as equivilance goes they're pretty much there, just look at LMP2 where you have AER's 2-litre turbo-charged straight four matching the 3.4L NA V8's of Judd and Zytek.

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

I'd like to see spec aero, mainly as a cost cutting measure.

Not interesting.

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

I'd add the word "standardized" to that as well myself, as a cost cutting thing.

Again, not interesting. Regulate things sensibly and it won't get out of hand.

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Sounds sensible apart from that I would allow three car teams.

Two-car teams is the proper way to go about it, if you ask me. Any more is just too much in both F1 and F2, but works in F3.

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Maybe do it after three weekends rather than half way.

Three is a bit too few to my mind. Maybe four, but I prefer at the half way mark.

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

That way teams would need pit stop specialists (unless the tyres are hard enough to do 80 minutes in which case they would handle like a bathtub full of lard on an icerink unless they were rather aero dependant). And would fuel tanks of that size be safe?

The tyres should be hard enough to make the full race distance if you take care of them. If you don't, well, then you'll have to change them. And yes, fuel tanks of that size can certainly be safe enough.

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Maybe only count the team's worst result in each weekend and have a constructor's championship (best and worst count).

I'm not sure I understand what you're suggesting. What's so terribly hard about having every car's points counting towards a team's championship? And I thought about including a constructor's championship as I figured there'd be a big difference between the number of teams running for example Lola or Dallara to Carlin or Racing Engineering. Either you count all of the points scored to the constructor (which favours the likes of Lola), or the two best cars (which makes the constructors championship table look silly, as a backmarker with his own car with 0 points as a driver would have several as a constructor), or have each constructor nominate two cars for points scoring for the season/weekend (which again results in an odd table).

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

As for current GPs, I don't feel comfortable with drivers racing for 2 hours around Bahrain, I appreciate that races were longer.

They won't be (racing at Bahrain, that is). My own GP calendar would look something like this:

1. Brazilian GP, Interlagos
2. Portuguese GP, Estoril
3. San Marino GP, Imola
4. Spanish GP, Jerez
5. Monaco GP
6. Canadian GP, Montreal
7. United States GP, Road Atlanta
8. French GP, Paul Ricard (restored to a proper circuit with grass)
9. British GP, Silverstone
10. German GP, Hockenheim (Old forest circuit)
11. Czech GP, Brno
12. Belgian GP, Spa
13. Italian GP, Monza
14. European GP, Nurburgring
15. Japanese GP, Suzuka
16. Australian GP, Adelaide

F2 wouldn't be at the Estoril race to delay the start of the season, but at all of the other European races. Pau would be held during F1's American trip.

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

As far as equivilance goes they're pretty much there, just look at LMP2 where you have AER's 2-litre turbo-charged straight four matching the 3.4L NA V8's of Judd and Zytek.

OK then, I don't follow sports cars.

Originally Posted by re spec aero

Not interesting.

In what sense? GP2 provides perfectly interesting racing with spec cars. Also, it's a costs issue. Chassis producers will go around spending thousands of pounds to generate a milligram more downforce from the front wings. It won't harm the racing.

Again, not interesting. Regulate things sensibly and it won't get out of hand.

There's little difference between the gearboxes, and things would work out cheaper.

Two-car teams is the proper way to go about it, if you ask me. Any more is just too much in both F1 and F2, but works in F3.

F2 should be half way between F3 and F1, not nearer to F2 IMO. It should be a similar role to GP2 now for junior drivers.

Three is a bit too few to my mind. Maybe four, but I prefer at the half way mark.

It's a minor detail anyway.

The tyres should be hard enough to make the full race distance if you take care of them. If you don't, well, then you'll have to change them. And yes, fuel tanks of that size can certainly be safe enough.

Pit stop specialists are expensive, I don't know what sort of budget we want it to be running for (I try to think £200,000 per season, €200K is a bit unachievable) but team personell should be kept to a minimum.

I'm not sure I understand what you're suggesting. What's so terribly hard about having every car's points counting towards a team's championship? And I thought about including a constructor's championship as I figured there'd be a big difference between the number of teams running for example Lola or Dallara to Carlin or Racing Engineering.

It would only apply to three car teams - in a one car team the best and worst result would be the same car, in a two car team the best and worst would be the two drivers.

1 car team - Win = 10 points
2 car team - Win + 8th = 11 points
3 car team - Win + 8th + DNF = 10 points

Either you count all of the points scored to the constructor (which favours the likes of Lola), or the two best cars (which makes the constructors championship table look silly, as a backmarker with his own car with 0 points as a driver would have several as a constructor), or have each constructor nominate two cars for points scoring for the season/weekend (which again results in an odd table).

Best and worst result. Take this example

Dallara - 1st, out of points, out of points, out of points, out of points
Lola - 2nd, 8th, out of points, out of points
Epsilon Euskadi - 3rd, 7th, out of points
Panoz - 4th, 6th
Prodrive - 5th

The best results are in bold. The worst results are in italics. The bold results and the italic results count.

They won't be (racing at Bahrain, that is). My own GP calendar would look something like this:

...

The new tracks still have longish contracts so they can't be got rid of at a drop of a hat. Old Hockenheim won't be coming back etc. etc.

Besides, I still think that TV won't particularly like races that length and I am still queasy about lengthening GPs due driver fatigue. It's not like golf where if you screw up the ball goes in to the trees ... the car goes in to armco.

[racecontrol]

Which team do you think will follow F2 (is it will ever start)? GP" teams? F3 Eurocup team? Or maybe Euroseries 3000 teams as the Series is going to finisgìh at the end of this season....

[johntt]

Originally Posted by racecontrol

Which team do you think will follow F2 (is it will ever start)? GP" teams? F3 Eurocup team? Or maybe Euroseries 3000 teams as the Series is going to finisgìh at the end of this season....

Euroseries F3000 is finishing?

I reckon we'll see the teams that are usually in a lot of single seater championsips like Carlin, Manor etc.

According to Autosport today the plan is for F2 to run seperatly from any other FIA series as a standalone event.

[Go_For_Pole]

Aha, back to the good old days where F.3000 races were watched by five people and a dog (that was an Autosport pic caption that I still remember)

[johntt]

Anyone think that the format of F2 proposed by the FIA would be better suited to a GP Masters style championship? Have them run 5 races a year as support for the British, French, German, Italian and Belgian GPs.

Heres my idea of Formula 2:

1. Take Gp2 and rename it Formula 2
2. Open up the engines to LMP2 engine rules with restrictors adjusted to keep the cars at around 600bhp. Instantly you will have brought some technical diversity to the series by brining in Judd, Porsche, AER, Mazda, Zytek and Acura engines. (Acura/Porsche/Mazda engines may be rebranded by the their respective companies but engines are engines). I wouldn't include the production-based engines rule that LMP2 has though.
3. Open up the chassis to multiple manufacturers. Aero should be similar to the previous generation Gp2 car (the Dallara Gp2-07 currently being used in Gp2 Asia).
4. Budget capping like is proposed for F1 (IMO championships like Gp2/F3 need budget capping to control the spiralling costs, F1 doesn't need it at all, it being the pinnacle of motorsport and everything).
5. Keep the current Gp2 weekend format but get rid of the compulsory pitstop in the feature race, leave the decision up to the individual teams.

[Mekola]

Originally Posted by johntt

Euroseries F3000 is finishing?

The grid of that series shrinked to about 10 entries, and they tried to replace Lola B02/50 to A1GP Lola cars, despite the rulers of that series denied that they would want to lend these chassises to them.

[Go_For_Pole]

Heard from someone that should know that we might as well forget F2 for 2009

[Alex K]

That's none of surprised, I'd be surprised if they start the season next year, haven't heard them signing up to any series weekend, they must start promotion NOW to start up in May... We don't know required budgets, any sponsorship collisions, etc.

I think it'd be easier to quickly sign chassis producer, because Lola got them FNippon chassis, if they can buy them out, from whoever owner is, or will be, they got chassis straight from start.

[META4]

Italiaracing announce that Mygale will be the chassis manufacturer, BMW will provide the engine and Palmer will be in charge of the maintenance. The same article says that this new Formula2 will be also sharing the calender between F1 Week ends and WTCC.

Basicly same concept as GP3/Formula Master

Again a funny informations from italiaracing if you consider that the Tender ends up on 29th of August

http://argent.fia.com/web/appeloffre.nsf/F1E0E744E187FA96C1257483004C294E/$FILE/AO%20cars%202009,2011.pdf?openelement

[chunterer]

Palmer Promosport spec Mygale-BMW then......

Ooh my mouth's watering.......

These should make for a challenge for drivers and exciting for fans then!

[Go_For_Pole]

A glorified FPA, how exciting indeed. If all FIA can do is this then it is no wonder they are pretty much messing up in everything they are running.

[Mekola]

One more chassis supplier please... it doesn't need to be so experienced, Mosley could make movements to revive March/Simtek/Wirth Eng./whatever to create another chassis maker aside Mygale.

[Pete Fenelon]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Palmer Promosport spec Mygale-BMW then......

Ooh my mouth's watering.......

These should make for a challenge for drivers and exciting for fans then!

Is it too late to put a few grand on Jolyon Palmer for the first F2 champion? ;P

[Roninho]

Originally Posted by Go_For_Pole

A glorified FPA, how exciting indeed. If all FIA can do is this then it is no wonder they are pretty much messing up in everything they are running.

Don't agree on this. F1 has a terrible feeder system compared to series like Moto-gp and Nascar. Young talented drivers get paid (and some very good) to race in 125-250cc or Nascar Busch. Also many drivers that will never make it to the top can make a good living in those support-series.

If you look at F1 a good driver has to find money to run 2 years in F3 (let's say 2x 500.000,-) & then 2 years gp2 (even if half the drive is funded by the team that's still 750k a year). So your looking at 2.5mio tot 3.5mio just to run, without any paycheck. And then you'll have to fight it out with 25 others to hopefully get a chance in f1. I think there have been many possible gp-winners that saw their career end early because of budget-issues.

IF (and that's a big if) the FIA (and the manufacturer backing this F2 serie) can make it happen that the topdrivers in this new-f2 serie can get rides in GP2 based on performance in F2 (and not $) then imo this f2 serie would be a major improvement.

[jondownunder]

In today's Autosport it's confirmed that Palmer has submitted a tender, with cars featuring design input from WilliamsF1

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70266