[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Ted bennett

Is 900 Kilo confirmed for P1 2011 ? I have never really understood why P1 has such a high minimum weight, if anything it should be the reverse of the current set up between P1 and P2. It would not need any special engineering effort to get a 3.4 litre engined sportscar down to something like 750 kilo. The XJR-14 required ballast to make the 750 kilo limit which was of course a closed roof car complete with the mandatory beefy roll cage and that was almost twenty years ago. The top prototype category should have fast cars which will be unlikely with a 520 hp 900 kilo slug.

I agree, P1 should be lighter than P2. Lightening the load is a good way to improve fuel economy and that seems to be one of the things the ACO is after.

[deggis]

I agree but I guess lower min. weight means lighter, more expensive materials...

[b555]

Deggis is right.ACO is going give teams even smaller air restrictors,if they have engine which is being developed by a engine manfacturer. it's sad,but true.
An LMP1 car with only 520 hp.It's absolutely ridiculous.

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by Ted bennett

Is 900 Kilo confirmed for P1 2011 ? I have never really understood why P1 has such a high minimum weight, if anything it should be the reverse of the current set up between P1 and P2. It would not need any special engineering effort to get a 3.4 litre engined sportscar down to something like 750 kilo. The XJR-14 required ballast to make the 750 kilo limit which was of course a closed roof car complete with the mandatory beefy roll cage and that was almost twenty years ago. The top prototype category should have fast cars which will be unlikely with a 520 hp 900 kilo slug.

Bang on Ted. Make the P2 cars heavier (it never made sense to make the "lower" prototype category lighter--costs money to build a light car) and let P1 be the light weights.

[Bentley03]

Need some clarification please...........

Listening to Midweek Motorsport last Wednesday, I'm sure Hindy was implying (and Graham chose not to correct him) that the ACO also intend to adopt a single LMP class strategy (or performance equalisation between P1 and P2) in the next few years for Le Mans and the Le Mans Series in line with the direction being taken by the ALMS in 2010.

That's the first I've heard of it (unless I've completely misunderstood one/some of the ACO's communications). Is this correct?

[isynge]

I too thought Hindy had got it a bit apse over nave too. Indeed it struck me that the context of the conversation - Drayson's LMP1 Lola - could be seen as a very short term project in its current guise, as certainly the Judd motor it's going to have will go the way of all flesh come 2011.

I suppose you could see it as being a case that contemporary LMP2s will become, in effect, LMP1s, and the current LMP1 chassis could step down to the 2011 regs fairly easily - so there being a merge in that sense, and then the 2011 LMP2s with the production based engines etc become the 'new' class.

I'm sure someone who's read the ACO regs in much greater detail will be able to set us right.

[Purist]

The trick with minimum weight is that you build the car as light as you can, within some amount of reason, because that will make it more competitive. Sure, you'll have to ballast it back up, but you have more flexibility then in where you put the weight.

I do also think that the LMP1s could/should be lighter than 900kg, especially wih just the proposed 520hp. For reference, the 1957 Maserati 450S (Tipo 54) with the enlarged 5.7-litre V8 (as opposed to the standard 4.5-litre unit) weighed ~790kg and produced 526hp. Meanwhile, something like the Maserati Tipo 61 "Birdcage" with 275hp was 525-600kg.

More recently, for much of the GTP era, the cars were 750-820kg, with 650-900hp (Ford Probe GTP at the low end of power with the Corvette GTP and Buick Hawk GTP at the upper end).

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Bentley03

Need some clarification please...........

Listening to Midweek Motorsport last Wednesday, I'm sure Hindy was implying (and Graham chose not to correct him) that the ACO also intend to adopt a single LMP class strategy (or performance equalisation between P1 and P2) in the next few years for Le Mans and the Le Mans Series in line with the direction being taken by the ALMS in 2010.

That's the first I've heard of it (unless I've completely misunderstood one/some of the ACO's communications). Is this correct?

Well according to the 2010 rules the ACO has released it seems it is not merging them for 2010 Here english text from page #4




L.P.

[HORNDAWG]

By the 2010 rules it seems that the R-15 and WR will need new sidepods as the 'gills' are ruled out.




L.P.

[gwyllion]

According to http://www.endurance-info.com/versio...ance-3857.html the 2011 LMP rules will most likely mandate a (F1 style) shark fin. FIA asks for this as a safety messure such that cars don't flip when going sideways.

[arakis]

plus it adds downforse when the car yaws

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

According to http://www.endurance-info.com/versio...ance-3857.html the 2011 LMP rules will most likely mandate a (F1 style) shark fin. FIA asks for this as a safety messure such that cars don't flip when going sideways.

I would love to see Mulsanne's Mike opinion on this one
Frankly, todays LMPs are enough F1 look a like... what we really don´t need is more F1 stylish things on endurance. Seems to me (help me Mike) this is more a design imposition rather that a security one!

An what we really really don´t need is a late 90s and the 3.5l engines regulation revival!!!

[arakis]

I disagre, aero from f1 should be implemented if it works, runing away from f1 and saying lets not have any of it in endurance is paranoid. todays f1 engines can last up to 1200km, witch isn't exacly le mans, but nor is it the old f1 where you could bin an engine after 400km, all other parts could easily outlast sebring

[Purist]

My main issue is that the things are uglier than sin.

I did take a look at the 1982 Kremer Porsche CK-5. I liked it, from any angle at which I could NOT see the shark fin, lol.

I think it could actually be counter-productive, since when it catches air, it will produce a polar moment up high.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by arakis

I disagre, aero from f1 should be implemented if it works, runing away from f1 and saying lets not have any of it in endurance is paranoid. todays f1 engines can last up to 1200km, witch isn't exacly le mans, but nor is it the old f1 where you could bin an engine after 400km, all other parts could easily outlast sebring

Sebring would tear it apart!!






L.P.

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by arakis

I disagre, aero from f1 should be implemented if it works, runing away from f1 and saying lets not have any of it in endurance is paranoid. todays f1 engines can last up to 1200km, witch isn't exacly le mans, but nor is it the old f1 where you could bin an engine after 400km, all other parts could easily outlast sebring

For me, they could do 10,000 Km with one single fuel deposit!!! They still look ugly like hell, and i still remember the harm tha FIA made to Le Mans in the 90s.

F1 is not all in life. If it works for them... good for them! There are a lot of things that works on others racing disciplines and we are to obligated to implement them on LMPs. Different concepts... different cars...

I hate uniformity...

Endurance is endurance, F1 is F1...

A F1 in Sebring? That would be funny to watch...

[Fogelhund]

More changes, more expenses....

[JAG]

http://www.dp-motorsport.de/9.html?L=1&

[JAG]

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/ferrari333-2.html

[Purist]

Somehow, it works on the Ferrari 333SP, but then again, it's hard to drape that red and yellow Momo livery over a car and make it look bad. Also, that's a rather small fin on the Ferrari.

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by JAG

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/ferrari333-2.html

You can join the Gebhardt JC2 853 and Gebhardt JC 853 to the list...

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by LeMans.pt

I would love to see Mulsanne's Mike opinion on this one
Frankly, todays LMPs are enough F1 look a like... what we really don´t need is more F1 stylish things on endurance. Seems to me (help me Mike) this is more a design imposition rather that a security one!

An what we really really don´t need is a late 90s and the 3.5l engines regulation revival!!!

For starters I think this would be aesthetically controversial. Secondly, I have a preliminary version of the 2011 regulations and this isn't in them. Thirdly, was taking with someone close to one of the major manufacturer efforts and their response was that there aren't any changes in the bodywork regulations for next year (which aligns with the regulations that I have) and that the yaw-reduction regulations aren't due to be implemented until 2012. Fourthly, not sure there's any evidence that points to shark fins being beneficial to yaw-flip reduction. Figure the IRL used them for years ("Fan fin") and didn't go back to them when the had a sudden concern about yaw-flips. Instead they went to a domed skid and a small centerline gurney. Wirth Research was behind that work and recommended the domed skid for sportscar starting at the beginning of last season. Perhaps they're now talking about a centerline gurney and that's translating into a shark fin? On IRL cars it was .5" tall and went down the CL of the car.

Translating the article from Endurance info, it only seems to suggest that this would be a good idea, "If the information is not yet official, it should in any case there have a wing of this type on each prototype, in central position, after starting from the arch. Affaire Ã* suivre… Stay tuned ."

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by MulsanneMike

For starters I think this would be aesthetically controversial. Secondly, I have a preliminary version of the 2011 regulations and this isn't in them. Thirdly, was taking with someone close to one of the major manufacturer efforts and their response was that there aren't any changes in the bodywork regulations for next year (which aligns with the regulations that I have) and that the yaw-reduction regulations aren't due to be implemented until 2012. Fourthly, not sure there's any evidence that points to shark fins being beneficial to yaw-flip reduction. Figure the IRL used them for years ("Fan fin") and didn't go back to them when the had a sudden concern about yaw-flips. Instead they went to a domed skid and a small centerline gurney. Wirth Research was behind that work and recommended the domed skid for sportscar starting at the beginning of last season. Perhaps they're now talking about a centerline gurney and that's translating into a shark fin? On IRL cars it was .5" tall and went down the CL of the car.

Translating the article from Endurance info, it only seems to suggest that this would be a good idea, "If the information is not yet official, it should in any case there have a wing of this type on each prototype, in central position, after starting from the arch. Affaire Ã* suivre… Stay tuned ."

Thanks
Always learning...

[arakis]

Originally Posted by LeMans.pt

For me, they could do 10,000 Km with one single fuel deposit!!! They still look ugly like hell, and i still remember the harm tha FIA made to Le Mans in the 90s.

F1 is not all in life. If it works for them... good for them! There are a lot of things that works on others racing disciplines and we are to obligated to implement them on LMPs. Different concepts... different cars...

I hate uniformity...

Endurance is endurance, F1 is F1...

A F1 in Sebring? That would be funny to watch...

dude relax, aero has noting to do with endurance or f1, if it give most downforce with minimum drag, i should be on any race car. like i said quit being f1 paranoid, endurence sports cars will never look like f1 cars, for one thing they are closed wheeled cars

[deggis]

Originally Posted by MulsanneMike

Secondly, I have a preliminary version of the 2011 regulations and this isn't in them.

Can you reveal any details about or comment on the engine regulations? Diesel vs. petrol? Are we really going to see barely 500 hp P1s?