Mallory park (star of Mallory & plum pud)

[anna_blakemore]

Have had an email today saying the 750 maybe organising the star of Mallory meeting in a few weeks and also the plum pudding in December? Who was originally organising these events, and what's happened to them. Anyone know when they will definatly be confirmed as the organiser or is it out at some sort of quote/tender?

[The Fat Clerk]

The word on the street is that the Star of Mallory has been cancelled because Not Real Motorsport couldn't get enough entrys

[Fred Bromley]

I have checked with Mallory Park and the Star of Mallory has been cancelled!

[Greem]

Was announced on Facebook last week:

https://www.facebook.com/mallorypark...51830298338948

[The Fat Clerk]

The date is now a Motorbike Track Day, now there's a funny thing

[JamieStewart9]

To be fair, I don't think Mallory Park actually want to populate their calendar with Motorcycle Track Days, but if the car clubs can't/won't commit to events and make them pay, what do you want them (the circuit) to do?

They can't be expected to just give any of their noise days away for nothing can they?

If that's really what you want them to do Dave, the circuit might as well close now. The cold fact is that there is a requisite daily rental cost to keep the circuit open and viable, if the car clubs don't want to pay that cost and an alternate hirer (who just happens to be a motorcycle trackday organiser) does, the circuit have to look at the economics and make a decision based on that.

I have sat back and watched what's been going on at the venue and although the progress hasn't been as fast as I might have liked, they are going in the right direction with circuit presentation & safety. I had intended waiting until all of the things I would like to see improved had been completed, but if everybody just sits back and waits, they would run out of money before it all got done.
So although I can't get 3 successive days and have had to opt for a Thursday test day followed by a Saturday & Sunday weekend event, I felt it was better to go back in 2017 as a sign of support for the circuit.

I hope more of the car clubs do likewise, as the circuit needs a balance of both car and bike events.

[anna_blakemore]

Jamie, sounds like you are either making an entry or hiring the venue for a race meeting. Either way good luck with it.
I used to be at Mallory a lot a while back and loved the racing, going to see the BARC, BRSCC, 750MC meetings with big grids close racing and many thrills and spills. Seems a shame that the venue has fallen so far off due to miss management by the previous operators and some very short sighted decisions.
Dave, it seems that you don't approve of the current owners? Although it seems that club Mallory were pretty poor, don't really see what they have put forward as they have no championships to offer so if real motorsport were taking the entries I don't see what club Mallory were offering (maybe they could apply for a permit and cream off some cash!!).

[JamieStewart9]

Hi Anna,
Sorry if my log in doesn't reflect who I am.
I am Dave Stewart, I own Thundersport GB, Stewart Events and Thundersport Midlands.

We aren't as big as BARC, BRSCC or MSVR but we aren't that far behind any of them and more importantly, we don't rely on anyone elses content to fill our events - we own and operate all 21 of our own championships.

We ran the Race of the Year, Sidecar Festival and Plum Pudding meetings for a few years at the end of the BARC tenure. We did so purely as a favour to John Ward (as all of those events actually lost money) because, despite the fact that he was left to carry the can for BARCs gross mis-management of the venue - was a good bloke and wanted to keep Mallory Parks racing history on both two & four wheels going in perpetuity.

I don't really care much about the politics of the situation, but I do care about a venue that we might ALL lose if it can't become commercially viable again.

Dave is quite right in thinking that the current operators don't know much about the car racing world and consequently get things wrong when trying to put car events together sometimes, but they actually need help not critisism.

I found myself in exactly that situation when I ran Lydden Hill circuit back in the mid-1990s and again when we re-opened Donington Park in late 2010. In both of those instances I found the leading people in the car clubs to be very helpful and supportive.
What has changed in those few years?
Don't you all want to have this great little venue up and running sweetly again?
Or do you all just want the venue to subsidise your racing indefinately? - Because if you do, it will be gone forever.

Sorry if that seems a little blunt, but I have just had two small bottles of Peroni - which is more than I'm usually allowed by the wife.........

[The Fat Clerk]

QUOTE=JamieStewart9;3677107]Hi Anna,
We did so purely as a favour to John Ward (as all of those events actually lost money) because, despite the fact that he was left to carry the can for BARCs gross mis-management of the venue - was a good bloke and wanted to keep Mallory Parks racing history on both two & four wheels going in perpetuity.
.

Dave is quite right in thinking that the current operators don't know much about the car racing world and consequently get things wrong when trying to put car events together sometimes, but they actually need help not critisism.




It's not the circuit owners, rather the company they've got in to run the circuit. They have a background in bikes and are not interested in cars at all. They wont take advice from people that have run car meetings for decades, they think they know it all.

Now there's nothing wrong with Bike racing, my Brother in Law does Irish Road Racing and his son has raced in the excellent Thundersports series run by Dave & Bernadette Stewart.

I'm on the committee of a couple of clubs that would like to organise races @ Mallory (and other circuits) but have found Real Motorsport particularly unhelpful & expensive.

It would around £20k to run a Car Meeting @ Mallory - more than most other circuits.

Real Motorsport can't run car races because they are not an organising club as per the Blue Book, that's why if they want to promote a car meeting like The Star of Mallory or the Plum Pudding (car bit) they have to get a car club who are licensed, like for instance: Club Mallory, 750MC, BARC et all.

They then pay them an agreed fee and take the entry / gate money etc

[JamieStewart9]

I do understand your frustration Dave, but £20K to run an event is really cheap in the modern world. For a 3 day event at Donington Park, I budget just over £100K for one of our Thundersport GB bike events.
It's not easy to make that pay (and it's not the most expensive venue we visit either) but it is the reality that we have to live with.

I did predict that Eddie & Stuart would struggle a little bit in their relations with the car clubs, but I thought that would only last a year or so.

There seems to be a suspicion on both sides (car clubs and the circuit operators) at Mallory Park that each is trying to fleece the other. That isn't actually true, but there has been no clarity/honesty over the new fiscal reality at the circuit.

You probably know that I made an offer to take on the lease and I had worked out pretty accurately how much it would stand. Chris (RIP) declined my offer as the other bidder - which turned out to be Real Motorsport - had offered nearly 30% more than I had. I knew that couldn't add up.
Now given that Eddie has moved Comp-Log into the units and has made a saving on his other premises, that covers about 10% of that difference, but the other 20% could only be covered by increasing fees and that is why things have got more expensive.

The queue of customers that the circuit operators thought would be there, never materialised and that means that the few days they could sell had to go for more money. This isn't some kind of "Let's make the car clubs pay more" scam. It is just a reflection of the anticipated number of customers not showing up.
A miscalculation, not a money grab.

If they could sell all 52 noise days plus all 40 Race Days it still wouldn't add up at the old circuit hire rate. As it happens they are not getting anywhere near those levels of sales, so it must be really difficult for them.

That was why I chose to support them by booking 3 days for 2017 - even at the new higher fees which really don't make sense for me from a business perspective - the alternative seemed to be standing back and watching them drown slowly.

The big car clubs have a lot more money than I do and they could take the same longer term view if they wanted.
Trust me, paying out now in order to save this great little venue will seem like a very good option in 5 years time, but I do wonder if the bigger car clubs have the foresight to recognise that..........

I'm not holding my breath.

[The Fat Clerk]

Me neither mate

[flagwaver]

The other side to this argument is if I am a member of a Motor Club that puts on races for our members why should we "pay extra" to another business to keep it running?

Don't get me wrong I want to see Mallory survive, but it does need to look at what it is doing.

[JamieStewart9]

Originally Posted by flagwaver

The other side to this argument is if I am a member of a Motor Club that puts on races for our members why should we "pay extra" to another business to keep it running?

Don't get me wrong I want to see Mallory survive, but it does need to look at what it is doing.

Of course you don't have to "pay extra", but if you want it to remain an option for you and your Motor Club to race there in the future you may have to pay "the going rate" even if that is somewhat higher than you used to pay in seasons gone by.

Sometimes new realities require us all to have a new acceptance of them.
I've lost count of the number of postings I've seen across many sites over the years which start "When I started racing and Entry Fee was only £3 - 9 shillings and sixpence!" but the truth is that your weekly wage back then was probably also only £18 & 6.

Things cost what things cost.

I have no particular axe to grind here, I just think we are better off having 16 mainline circuits available for us to play with, than 15 circuits. If Mallory Park vanishes that will be the new reality and the pressure will then transfer to the next weakest venue..........

I don't want that and I have therefore decided to pay up.
I was merely putting forward my reasons for doing so when I still have plenty of other options (Silverstone, Croft, Thruxton, Castle Combe, Pembrey and Knockhill for example). I already use Brands Hatch, Snetterton, Donington Park (GP), Anglesey, Rockingham, Cadwell Park, Oulton Park and Donington Park (National) - I don't see any of those costing any less than Mallory Park and most of them are a lot more.

Just my point of view. My money, my choice I guess.

[anna_blakemore]

Dave, how are club Mallory actually an organising club? I don't understand how that came about as they seem to have only ever run a few meetings but have no actual race championships or series to run? Seems very odd.
All clubs now run very tight margins. I was at Mallory a few weeks back for a brscc meeting, grids were not great in most cases and it only had one brscc championship all the rest were just buying track time as it seems the club doesn't think it's drivers want to race at Mallory anymore.

[JamieStewart9]

Originally Posted by anna_blakemore

Dave, how are club Mallory actually an organising club? I don't understand how that came about as they seem to have only ever run a few meetings but have no actual race championships or series to run? Seems very odd.
All clubs now run very tight margins. I was at Mallory a few weeks back for a brscc meeting, grids were not great in most cases and it only had one brscc championship all the rest were just buying track time as it seems the club doesn't think it's drivers want to race at Mallory anymore.

To be fair, the honest answer is "I don't know".

I can only draw on my previous experience of such things. Back in the 1990s when I took over at Lydden Hill, I asked why we had so many SEMSEC meetings and only a few other car clubs.
At the time SEMSEC had no Championships only Series because they were still in the process of getting MSA Championship Accreditation.
The answer was that SEMSEC had originally been created in order to fill the empty (read un-sellable) dates at the circuit that the other car clubs would not take without being offered a significant discount.
A "significant discount" would have meant the circuit losing a lot of money and subsequently not being able to meet its financial obligations.
The BRSCC, BARC and the other local clubs thought that they had the circuit over a barrel and could dictate terms and I don't think they cared very much that this path would see the circuit go out of business.
The Tunbridge Wells Motor Club took a different view, but they didn't want to take all of the risk. BMCRC (who owned the lease) went into a 50/50 deal with them and created SEMSEC.
Nobody was earning much out of the deal but it did mean that the other car clubs had to pay the "going rate" (remember that?). This ultimately saved the circuit from going under.
We got MSA Championship Accreditation for 5 Championships and that put us back in the driving seat.

When I took over it was pretty grim. We (the BMCRC) had £75 in the bank and our debts were well over £25,000 so we were technically insolvent. I took a personal loan from a friend (who happens to be very rich and very supportive of motorsport in all its forms) and with a lot of hard work we dug ourselves out of the hole.

Now you may think that I have a dim view of the big 3 Car Clubs but I couldn't have done without the help and support of an absolute GIANT of a man who happened to be running the BRSCC at that time. A single one hour face to face meeting with John Nichol is what saved the circuit.
He understood that in order to preserve the circuit for future use, the BRSCC had to send good championships to Lydden Hill (even though many of their co-ordinators didn't want to go) AND they had to pay the asking price.

Sure, I gave him the best dates, but he repaid me by never letting me down. He also came to some of my motorcycle events and decided that we actually did some things a lot better than the car clubs. Remember "Racing Ahead"? - the idea for that was born in the shabby old control tower at Lydden Hill during one of my bike meetings.

I can only guess that Club Mallory is a mirror image of SEMSEC - born out of necessity - if you look at it, most of the people involved are ex-BARC Midlands so it kind of makes sense.

Given the options all over again, I would probably have elected to sit down and have a sensible conversation with all of the car clubs together and put my cards on the table.

Hindsight is 20/20.

[The Fat Clerk]

Originally Posted by anna_blakemore

Dave, how are club Mallory actually an organising club? I don't understand how that came about as they seem to have only ever run a few meetings but have no actual race championships or series to run? Seems very odd.
All clubs now run very tight margins. I was at Mallory a few weeks back for a brscc meeting, grids were not great in most cases and it only had one brscc championship all the rest were just buying track time as it seems the club doesn't think it's drivers want to race at Mallory anymore.

Read section A of the Blue Book

[anna_blakemore]

Ok Dave, maybe a better question would be why do they exsist? According to previous posts they are run mostly by ex BARC people who are the club that got the circuit into the mess its in and they offer nothing other clubs such as CSCC, BRSCC, 750MC etc have a proven track record in. No wonder real motorsport have little confidence or time in them.

[anna_blakemore]

PS I won't bother reading section A of the blue book, I tried one of the other sections once and it was boring. Equally the MSA don't send them out to marshals even when we are registered so presumably they don't think we need to know.

[JamieStewart9]

Originally Posted by anna_blakemore

Ok Dave, maybe a better question would be why do they exsist? According to previous posts they are run mostly by ex BARC people who are the club that got the circuit into the mess its in and they offer nothing other clubs such as CSCC, BRSCC, 750MC etc have a proven track record in. No wonder real motorsport have little confidence or time in them.

They exist in order to fill the dates that other clubs will not take (a lot of dates) and because BARC were seen as Persona Non Grata after the original collapse of Mallory Park Motorsport.
All of the clubs you mention could easily take those dates and would almost certainly go straight to the front of the queue if they showed an interest.

To be fair Alan and Noreen are great people with their hearts firmly in club motorsport. They certainly aren't in it for their own gain and I think they just want to keep motorsport alive at Mallory Park, which is a good thing by any standards.

My own question would be "Why do the car clubs not see the logic of putting on events at Mallory Park and other less glamorous circuits?"

I would take a stab at the answer and say that it's jointly because:-
1) Most clubs have set up direct circuit affiliations with other venues.
2) There are too many clubs fighting over too few viable championships.
3) Championship co-ordinators are being allowed to dictate to hosting clubs where they want to go and the clubs are too weak to decide on the calendars themselves (some of that is because they are afraid that those championships will defect to an alternate club - MSVR springs to mind).
4) Directly linked to #3 - There is a general lack of quality leadership with any forward vision in car motorsport at the moment. (That is also true for bikes btw)

I do not pretend to have solutions to all of those things, but I do know that if someone doesn't come up with a better way forward, Mallory Park and the current Silverstone/BRDC mess won't be the only things that end up going to hell in a handcart.

[The Fat Clerk]

Originally Posted by anna_blakemore

PS I won't bother reading section A of the blue book, I tried one of the other sections once and it was boring. Equally the MSA don't send them out to marshals even when we are registered so presumably they don't think we need to know.

It's available online - free to all.

[anna_blakemore]

Dave,i agree with everything that you say except the part about the coordinators. The coordinators are the voice (or should be) of the competitor. No point a club forcing a championship to go to a venue most of its competitors don't want to visit. This will just lead to poor grids and a financial loss on the meeting. A good club surely listens to the coordinators and drivers and tried to get the circuits and the dates that fit all. Equally with the instability at Mallory no one wanted to put it in the championship for fear of it closing again.

[JamieStewart9]

Originally Posted by anna_blakemore

Dave,i agree with everything that you say except the part about the coordinators. The coordinators are the voice (or should be) of the competitor. No point a club forcing a championship to go to a venue most of its competitors don't want to visit. This will just lead to poor grids and a financial loss on the meeting. A good club surely listens to the coordinators and drivers and tried to get the circuits and the dates that fit all. Equally with the instability at Mallory no one wanted to put it in the championship for fear of it closing again.

I always have based every championship I have run on the "Take the rough with the smooth" concept.
If you agree to go to Lydden Hill, I'll find you a space at Brands Hatch GP circuit.
If you agree to go to Anglesey, I'll find you a space at Oulton Park.

It's always worked very well for me, as most people are actually very reasonable and they can see the benefits for all concerned.

We seem to have drifted way off topic here, so I'll knock it on the head now apologies.

[grantp]

No need to apologise, I think the information is pertinent and informative for many.

Back a few years ago up to quite recently it seemed that Mallory could regularly attract a fairly decent crowd of spectators to quite a few meetings - certainly at least as good as, for example, Donington at the time.

Competitors may not care much about that especially if they are self funding rather than third party sponsored with the sponsors having an eye on thier exposure in return for the cash. Club level seems to have moved a long way from that competitor benefit in the past few years.

One odd thing that seems to recur frequently is that a series or championship can become quite successful over a few years and start to attract a number of close competitors who can enjoy racing each other at all levels through the grid ... and then suddenly "deflates" almost overnight.

Without some sort of guarantee of reasonable continuity from the groups of would be competitors the organisers are likely to find it difficult to make thier events work year after year. It's easy to see how things head into Catch 22 territory making it difficult to "sell" the less attractive propositions without some form of special incentive.

Making the proposition attractive does not necessarily revolve around costs, but then if it's not a cost influence it would presumably have to be "social" influence - a nice way to spend the day or weekend - and what might appeal in that aspect may vary from one group of racers to another.

I also wonder whether the cost of entry to racing, before even getting onto the circuit, is not high enough to put off a fairly large number of those who might occasionally have joined in adding a few grand to the coffers of the organisers over the years.

For many the opportunity to take part in track days may be enough to keep them away from racing. It's something that was much less well organised in the past but offers plenty of openings these days. And of course the circuits welcome revenue from that that sort of activity just as much as racing. Perhaps more so given the lower staffing costs and potential wear and tear on the facilities.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by anna_blakemore

Ok Dave, maybe a better question would be why do they exsist? According to previous posts they are run mostly by ex BARC people who are the club that got the circuit into the mess its in

Don't tar everybody associated with BARC with the same brush. You need to separate the individual from the organisation - moving from the specific (BARC) to the general, within any organisation that fails at corporate level many, indeed in most cases most, of the people within that organisation will be more than competent.

[JamieStewart9]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

Don't tar everybody associated with BARC with the same brush. You need to separate the individual from the organisation - moving from the specific (BARC) to the general, within any organisation that fails at corporate level many, indeed in most cases most, of the people within that organisation will be more than competent.

Sorry Dave (Brand), I thought I'd made it quite clear that I thought many of the BARC individuals were very good for the sport. It was the poor leadership at the time that let them down.
The period after Denis Carter stepped down was a very inauspicious time for the club and just went to show how important strong leadership is. I can't even recall the name of the clown that took over, but he badly let down the very solid crew of volunteers that had worked for the club for many years.

I have worked with many of the old BARC crew at Mallory Park, Donington Park and Lydden Hill and I have the utmost respect for them - as I pointed out earlier.

Too blunt? - I'll get me coat.