[LM24] Worst sportscar ever to win Le Mans

[cybersdorf]

Well, I happened to catch a Top Gear rerun on cable TV just a few minutes before reading that post, and nice Mr. Clarkson said pretty much the exact same thing about the Rolls-Royce he was driving - German this, German that, "put together in Britain". Unintentionally comical in this context I suppose. All racecars are international, certainly; yet Bentley really played the national card before the race didn't they - as if W.O. had built this thing with his own hands. This is what I mean by "paint it green and the British fans are happy". Altogether a cynical affair. I'm sorry if you are unhappy about this but I see no reason whatsoever to retract my statement. It may have been a decent racecar (although it didn't run enough races for us to find out) but the "spin" that surrounded it was entirely too cynical for my liking.

The MG EX257 essentially has a Nissan engine, and it hasn't won much; but isn't that car rather more "authentic" than the EXPs.

[Aysedasi]

You're as entitled to your opinion Cy as anyone else, you know that, but we don't necessarily have to agree with it any more than everyone agrees with my "M3 thing"......

Personally, I tend not to get terribly jingoistic about these things any more. Certainly not like the Jag days when I first got into sports cars (and I mean the 80s, not the 50s... ).

Of course the hype was largely undeserved, but ultimately the car won at Le Mans and deserved it IMO. Every bit as much as all of the R8s deserved their wins (Jeez - did I really say that?). As for the MG, I don't really know...... As far as authenticity is concerned, these days, I'm not sure I'm all that bothered really..... (And that comes from someone who was rooting for Pesca three weeks ago.....).

[cybersdorf]

...and it was a nice green after all wasn't it.

[Aysedasi]

I always preferred purple and white myself......

[ADx_Wales]

as for the dauer 962 thing.....didnt anyone remember that Porsche built a "road going" version sometime between the late 80s and early 90s....so in theory it was a GT class car.....just like the Porsche 911 GT1 that won in 1998, but like the Merc-CLK and Toyota GT1 were more Group C than anyone could get.

[cybersdorf]

Yes it was a GT, absolutely, it ran in GT1 - Dauer built that car, that's why it was a "Dauer" not a Porsche. Clearly a loophole in the rules big enough for a whole 962
The 1998 Porsche was a GT1 as well.

In 1999, all former GT1 cars (or cars that for what reasons ever were never even homologated in GT1 such as the Toyota) ran as prototypes.

[ADx_Wales]

hold on, Dauer were the team that ran the 962 GT1 that year, just like Joest, Brun and Kremer did so many times with their own 962s during the 80s. thats what is so special about the 962 , there was so many different teams using them, with so many eye catching liveries.

however, back to the main debate.....

[cybersdorf]

Originally Posted by ADx_Wales

hold on, Dauer were the team that ran the 962 GT1 that year, just like Joest, Brun and Kremer did so many times with their own 962s during the 80s.

...as prototypes. Only Dauer ever built a road car and had it homologated in GT1. That's why it was homologated as "Dauer", not "Porsche".

[Aysedasi]

Exactly.

Exactly.

Exactly.

But the Dauer Portsche was a prototype almost entirely in prototype clothing that somehow managed to get itself homolgated in GT1. I guess we should applaud the team for succeeding.....

Somehow I can't bring myself to.....

[cybersdorf]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

But the Dauer Portsche was a prototype almost entirely in prototype clothing that somehow managed to get itself homolgated in GT1.

And therefore not a prototype. "Almost a banana" isn't a banana.

I guess we should applaud the team for succeeding.....

Somehow I can't bring myself to.....

Neither can I, although the "13th Porsche Triumph At Le Mans" poster looks good on my wall

[Aysedasi]

A banana? I'm happy to regard it as a GT1 banana.....

Point taken.

Note to self - Must move on from Dauer and M3 debates - not good for the health....

[lj79]

I cant criticise anything that HJ Stuck has driven. When it comes to Hans, rationality goes out of the window. Cant help it

[cybersdorf]

Originally Posted by lj79

I cant criticise anything that HJ Stuck has driven. When it comes to Hans, rationality goes out of the window. Cant help it

Makes sense to me!

[Aysedasi]

I confess I have the highest regard for HJ - not only as a gifted driver but as a gentleman as well.

[AMT]

Sorry Cybers, but you are wrong. The spin put on the "Bentley returning to Le Mans" thing was no different to what happened with the TWR Jaguar effort. And if you take the engine out of the equation, the Bentley car was as British by any measure as the Jaguar. The design of the car owed no more to the Audi than Southgate's Jags owed to Bob Tullius's. And as for only racing at Le Mans (and Sebring?), didn't the Toyota GTOne (more truly the ancestor of the Bentley in design terms) do that, with one Japanese race instead of Sebring? The title of the poll is "Worst sportscar ever to win Le Mans", and what VAG did with the Bentley project promotionally doesn't detract from the car's superb performance at Le Mans.

[cybersdorf]

Alright, I'm wrong.

[Dan Rear]

Don't see how the Rondeau can be considered a bad car. Not only did it finish consistently at LM from about 78-83, but as a concept it pretty much invented Group C, IMSA GTP, which I suspect many posters on here (like me!) regard as the best Sprtscar era ever.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by cybersdorf

Alright, I'm wrong.

Somehow I don't believe you mean that.........


I think AMT what you meant to say was "Sorry Cybers, but you are wrong, IMO".....

[marcosgt]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Somehow I don't believe you mean that.........


I think AMT what you meant to say was "Sorry Cybers, but you are wrong, IMO".....

He's not wrong anyway...

Jaguar were independent when they went to Le Mans and they DID use an engine CLEARLY identifiable as developed from the road V12 (ignore what happened with the V6 and Cosworth later...).

VAG removed all factory support for Audis in 2003 to clear the way for Bentley. If they HADN'T won it would have been red faces all round.

Jaguar captured the fans in a way Bentley never did. Possibly because they were clearly British still, possibly because they took on and beat the might of Porsche and then fought Mercedes (After the 1988 win there were French people at the roadside waving Union Flags at British cars on the way back to the ports!), possibly simply because Group C was such a great series or possibly because you could see Jaguar racing week after week at your local circuit rather than at a couple of races.

The Bentley was a lovely car, but it was a cynical move on VAG's part that refocussed the marque's image for the release of the Continental (Footballers don't like driving the same car that the club chairman does), but did little to endear the brand to anyone who follows sportscar racing.

Cheers.

[cybersdorf]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Somehow I don't believe you mean that.........

I don't.

Perfectly summed up AMT; the topic header is misleading I guess; the car itself wasn't bad (it won, after all) but the mentality behind it I found and still do. The thing about Jaguar's return in the 80s is, back then the sentiment was genuine. With Bentley, it rang hollow.

But in the end, all this is just spilling milk on a dead horse.

[cybersdorf]

Originally Posted by Dan Rear

Don't see how the Rondeau can be considered a bad car. Not only did it finish consistently at LM from about 78-83, but as a concept it pretty much invented Group C, IMSA GTP, which I suspect many posters on here (like me!) regard as the best Sprtscar era ever.

It's not on my **** list, either.

[Aysedasi]

Far too much agreement going on here now.

I think this is all total and complete rubbish.

Damn, another falsehood......

Agree with you marcosgt as well.

Damn, damn.

Now, where's that thread about the Dauer.......

[cybersdorf]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Far too much agreement going on here now.

You're never happy, are you.

[lj79]

Originally Posted by cybersdorf

I don't.

The thing about Jaguar's return in the 80s is, back then the sentiment was genuine. With Bentley, it rang hollow.

Totally agree. And that Bentley PR woman got right on my txts too! There another reason to have this as the worst car ever to win Le Mans

[cybersdorf]

Originally Posted by lj79

And that Bentley PR woman got right on my txts too!

There is a wealth of jokes in there that I would like to explore but I don't think this is appropriate here.