Button vs. Montoya- Is Frank Williams a fool?

[Katie]

Just taking a poll here: who's going to be the better of the 2 drivers in 2001 - Button or Montoya?

[Dino IV]

Yep, Frank Williams is a fool ... he kept Ralf instead of Button

It depends, Katie, Benetton will be a season behind on Williams for worksengine cooperation and as a team yet not at the strength of full WC battlestations, so I guess the Williams will be a more competitive car.

And competitive cars is where the game is all about, not competitive drivers. We've seen that this year where the FW22 was the missing link between the awesome pace of the F1-2000 and MP4/15 and the midfield cars and a mediocre driver as Ralf could finish fifth in the WDC.

If the Michelin beats Bridgestone we could see a surprising season, if not Williams will not be able to better that fifth position. Montoya will be - in absolute terms - ahead of Button ofcourse. Button will fire up Fisi and I don't think he can handle a fired up Fisi.

[Gt_R]

Letting Jenson Button go might be a mistake in Juan doesnt prove competitive. However, i think Frank might profit from having one of his drivers in Benetton. In the short term, it seems likely that Benetton would be one of Williams biggest rival, just like Mclaren is to Ferrari. To have Jenson spend two years during Benetton's foundation years could well benefit as Frank might learn alot about their rivals, not neccessarily the details of the engines or electronics, but more of a gauge of competition, the talented personnels, the way the team works, and brief descriptions of the advanced components benetton have. All these would prove valuable to the engineers as well as Frank, who if needs more talented personnels, know exactly who to fish for...

Even if that is nnot the case (well, i'm rarely correct in my guesses!) i still believe Franky o'boy knows what he is doing...

[Minardi fan]

He signed Gene, so I'd say of course he knows what he's doing.

However, Montoya can't handle it when he's not winning, so then again...

[Airhead]

Dino IV,

Once again your predudices align with mine. Frank should have held Button AND JPM, then let the little shoe go to where ever! Ralf is mid field for certain.

But then...

[Splatz]

Minardi fan, I knew the time would come when you'd start waving that anti-Montoya flag you've got hidden away there. Perhaps have a look again at who was really the dominant driver of 2000 in CART, or don't you like to check facts. Who was the driver with most laps led, was it Montoya perhaps? Was it then daylight second? Nobody came close to him, for race dominance. Montoya lossed the championship by not finishing lots of races. Did he crash for every DNF? No. By the way, when they say Mechanical Failure it usually means: 1. the Toyota (for Montoya's Target car) stuffed up, or, 2. The Lola gearbox broke. Also, look at how he qualified this year, (2000).

You said he can't take losing, did you even watch CART in 1999 or 2000 at all. Did you ACTUALLY watch his interviews after he DNF'ed? I have never seen a driver EVER, handle it so well. Not ever. TGF for instance acts like a jerk and blames everyone else at Ferrari for his failure. Admittedly he is getting better which is to his credit and people are respecting him more for this.

Chip Ganassi said Montoya was the best driver he had ever seen. Also, when asked whether he was confident about his new replacement for Zanardi, called Juan Pablo Montoya, and whether he thought Montoya would be able to live up to the high standard set by Zanardi, Chip smirked a little, and said, and I paraphrase, "Yeah, coz he's even better than Zanardi." Yes it is his opinion, but look further and you'll see, more people who will say similar things.

Chip repeated to the media on more than one occasion that "Montoya was the best driver going around in racing today." "He is the best!" He would shout.

Further more, drivers said similar things, but less specifically. I dont have a record available of which driver desribed him as amazing, or incredible, I think it was Andretti. Michael never talks about Paul Tracy, Al Unser Jr, or even JV in this way (when JV was in CART.) Vasser was sometimes non-plussed as to how he could get landed with an even more dominating driver than Zanardi.

Montoya is fast, and with a better temperament than TGF or Mika for handling racing situations.

We all know Marc Gene can steer an F1 car around a track and he's reasonably quick by F1 standards, THE standard. But has anybody ever said he is the best driver in the world, apart from you, because I haven't come across any quotes from his team mates or bosses saying this. If such things have been said than fair enough. I'd be glad to read them and know who they came from. Same with Jenson Bunsen Burner, has anybody said that about him? People just love him cause the Brits are desparate for another world champion driver, and they think he'll turn ripe when Jaguar's ready to dominate F1, whenever that is.

JPM may or may not be the best, that we'll discover by the END of the year for sure, not necessarily after the first race.

To say he can't handle it when he's not winning shows gross ignorance on your part, flippancy, and lack of attention. This makes him out to be, what, some impetulent fool. The staunchly pro-F1 media have peddled this rubbish as they'd like to see another CART driver fail. This way they can again say, "I told you so, F1 is TOO much for CART drivers," or the, F1 has all the most talented people, speech.

Gene wouldn't win the driver's title even in a Ferrari or McLaren, as he's no quicker than DC, Barrichello, or Irvine. Although, he is probably more reliable than those three.

By the way, did you watch the IRL Indy 500 this year? Not bad for a guy who was competing in his FIRST IRL race, let alone first INDY 500. as a regular of 10tenths I'm sure you know Montoya won.

This guy is a freak and I predict he will be remembered for a long time. I doubt Marc Gene will be even racing in F1 in 5 years time. He'll need to do well to keep his seat as there is a horde of young drivers coming, that look a lot better than him... Montoya will also need to prove himself, but he has the advantage of being perhaps the best of the drivers coming in, and probably the most mentally solid regarding racing temperament.


*******
This has been your official kick in the date You seem smarter than your last statement, so lets have less of the rose-tinted glasses and more of your objective comments. Other times you seemed quite perceptive with what you said. More of that is better.

[Liz]

Sir Frank can be called a lot of things, but I doubt very much if it can be said that he doesn't know what he's doing. It is my opinion that he will keep an eye on Bunsen and see how he does in a non-competitive car against a fully-backed No. 1 pilot who is demonstrably better than he is; and he will also look to see whether Bunsen matures out of the "Buy My Stuff" mode - as we all know, Sir Frank does not go for the "Tall Poppies" who try to get more publicity than his cars and team. If Bunsen passes this test of fire, look for Ralfie to be seeking work at Sauber next year when Heidfeld moves on to better things, and Button and Juan Pablo as a team that will cause people to remember Mansell and Piquet, and incidentally to notice how boring the rest of the field really is.

Any real pilot won't "handle failure" well - if he does, he is showing he is a loser. However, Juan Pablo has grown out of blaming others and now looks ahead to the next race hwen he will do better. Shame one Mikey Andretti has never learned this little trick.

Sir Frank knows what he is doing. Bet on Williams next year.

[senna12]

Well, if I had thought long and hard on this, I don't think I could have put it any better than Splatz did, as I absolutely agree with what he said. Perhaps it's because living in N.A., I've seen a lot of JPM's races, including live at Vancouver.(near where I live). As I mentioned on a different thread, JPM was regarded by just about everyone over here as having the "formula one mentality", and there was not one pundit who did not think he would excel in F1. I also believe that Frank will let Ralf go eventually, especially if Jenson does well in 2 years. I think JPM will outperform Ralf once his fitness level is up to standard, and Jenson will find Fisi a tougher nut then Ralf was.Unless Briatore is still mad at him, of course!!!

[EERO]

Splatz, a little rough, but I essentially agree with you.

I do give Ralfie a lot of credit, much to Maoffat's chagrin, but I think that eventually The Montoya God will be WDC.

Williams manueverings of their drivers have been ruthless forever. Frank likes ballsy drivers and no one's position is safe if he isn't performing. Daman, as much a sI admired him fell flat in '95 and only nearly won it in '94 because TGF ahd so many races stripped from his tally.

When Damon finally came through, the decision to replace him with HHF had already been made. We all know how well Frenzy worked out...

Williams is consistently trying to find chargers-with Ralf and Montoya he will finally have two.

[Valve Bounce]

Frank has made mistakes in the past, like getting rid of Nigel, and getting rid of Damon. I did like Damon and I always felt that he did not deserve the abuse he received from some forums, especialy from the TGF fans. Damon qualified on the front row of every race for the entire season, which was quite an achievement and proof of his excellence. Frank made a mistake in choosing agent 0057 over Damon, and to prove the point 0057 did not perform that well at Williams. I think Frank learned by his mistakes, because he has a watertight hold on Bunsen's contract, and meanwhile he now has JPM whom he can gauge against Ralf to see how good JPM is. Whether we think JPM is good or Ralf is bad is irrelevent in this thread - it is whether Frank is a fool or not, and a fool Frank certainly isn't. This season will be more about how good the BMW is: if it is what I think it is, then both Ralf and JPM will win races to ridicule their detractors. If it does not have the legs of the Ferrari and Benz engines, then winning will be next to impossible. I find it interesting that someone starts a thread on whether Frank is a fool, and immediately guys start rubbishing Ralf and JPM. I like Ralf, and I picked him to be the first non Ferrari or McLaren qualifier and finisher all season. And I think JPM will do ell next year. I believe their detractors will be seriously enbarrased next year. I just love that sad looking guy, and can't resist giving him a click .

[Jay]

I have to wonder how much Michelin in its first year will help or more likely hinder the Williams progress next year.
Time will tell on Montoya.

[Gt_R]

Williams better hope Michelin was joking when they said Michelin's first win/pole would only come in 2003.... :P

[Valve Bounce]

I forgot to mention Michelin, didn't I? Michelin were in the game when Goodyear was dominant, and at some tracks, Michelin were simply not competitive. However, things are different now, they have three works cars in BMW, Ford and Renault to supply, and if my memory serves me correctly, they are only supplying these three teams - a limited number compared to Bridgestone. Money appears to be no object these days when works teams are involved, and it will be interesting to see how quickly Michelin will be competitive. From testing (I know, I know, testing is only testing), Michelin appears to be bang on target. Maybe we should also address the point whether Frank was a fool in going for Michelins. This is a big gamble, and it could be a case of Sh!t or Bust. I'll go out on a limb and tip Williams to win the Constructor's Championship. As I said before: FRANK IS BACK!!!!

[Jay]

I don't think Michelin was joking. A lot of people have been expecting them to come into F1 on par with Bridgestone. They have said that they don't expect any competitor with Bridgestone rubber to take a pole or win a race in the near future.

Here is an article from F1-live on Bridgestone in 2003: http://www.f1-live.com/f1-2000/en/AC...228184929.html

It is looking more and more likely that BAR are going to be the best of the rest next year.

[Minardi fan]

Splatz: Does the word sarcasm mean anything to you??? At no point did I say that Marc Gene was a better driver than Montoya - but I still say he has to prove himself in F1 first - just as Jenson did.

Montoya will be good next season for sure, but I don't see him bettering Ralf - it'll be pretty even throughout. And yes, Frank was wrong to let Button go - I think he will give Fisichella a serious run for his money, in a way Wurz could never manage.

P.S Thanks to Channel 5's ridiculous CART coverage, we never get interviews, and I don't get to see half the races since we can't pick the tv station up down in Canterbury... AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!!!

[Ralf's Girl]

Originally posted by Minardi fan
Splatz: Does the word sarcasm mean anything to you??? At no point did I say that Marc Gene was a better driver than Montoya - but I still say he has to prove himself in F1 first - just as Jenson did.

Montoya will be good next season for sure, but I don't see him bettering Ralf - it'll be pretty even throughout.

Oh joy! Someone who actually shares the same sentiments as me!

M-Fan, I agree with you that it'll be even. My thoughts are that qualifying could be a pretty even spread, but I think Ralf will do better in the races, as he did this year, because he has greater experience and will probably show more maturity.

And most people have automatically assumed that Montoya will be stunningly good before they have even seen him race (and before you all jump down my throat, I know how good he was in CART, but I also know that CART is not F1). I think he has to prove that he is good in a race situation before he can be assessed on whether or not he is going to be as successful as people think.

[Valve Bounce]

Jay, are you sure you intended to say what you posted?? I cannot imagine that Bridgestone would fail to get a pole or win a race next year!! I also find it difficult to think that the three works teams would run with Michelins if they thought they could not win until 2003 as GT_R suggested Michelins had joked. If that were the case, Michelins would have bought Minardi, stuffed a Renault engine in that car, and given them free tyres.
I find it very interesting all the commotion surrounding Ralf, JPM and Bunsen. Next season will be very interesting. I just love this guy.
By the way, a very Happy New Year to all my friends here on this friendly forum

[Jay]

I cannot imagine that Bridgestone would fail to get a pole or win a race next year!!

Nobody thought BAR would fail to get a single point in its first season either.
I have no idea what to expect from Michelin next year. I am not a big expert on tires, but I can't think of too many other Formula One ventures that were sucesses straight out of the box. What makes you think Michelin will be any different?

Even Patrick Head said they will have a learning period. Patrick expects Michelin to be showing itself when the series gets back to Europe. That is very quick development.

[EERO]

If history is any teacher, as a rule, Tire Manufactures don't have a great amount of success during their first seson if F1. Their involvement might lead to faster lap times, but rarely does it lead to wins.

Despite the fact that Michelin are aligned with Williams and Benetton, it would be surprising for them to win, particularly in light of the relationships held by McLaren and Ferrari with Bridgestone.

[chow wei hsien]

You said he can't take losing, did you even watch CART in 1999 or 2000 at all. Did you ACTUALLY watch his interviews after he DNF'ed? I have never seen a driver EVER, handle it so well. Not ever. TGF for instance acts like a jerk and blames everyone else at Ferrari for his failure

Quote by Spaltz
____________________________________________________________

ooh man.......that is absolutely not true about TGF. thats rubbish


anyway, i don't know how the contract with Button is like, but I think Frank Williams is making the best possible decisions after a few years of making stupid ones.

I assume that Frank gives Button a chance to be in Williams for 2000 when the seat is vacant while waiting for Montoya, and if Button is no good, then he have to leave the team, if he is good then Frank has the right to have him in 2003.
If Montoya is no good, Frank will have Button back. Whatever happens now, Frank is in a strong position.

I was wondering if Montoya is the equal of Ralf for the next two years, not better ..not worse, equal....what would Frank do?

[Valve Bounce]

Jay, I went back and re-read your post, and I finally figured out where I made my mistake. I assumed when you said any "competitor" with Bridgestone rubber meant any F1 car with Bridgestone Rubber couldn't get a pole or win a race. That would have meant Ferrari and McLaren, shod with Bridgestone rubber wouldn't make pole or win. I finally realised what you meant was "any tyre competitor OF Bridgestone rubber" meaning any car shod with tyres from any competitor of Bridgestone wouldn't make the pole or win. It's just one of those sentences that can be read either way. Well, I have to agree with you in that initially, I also thought that Michelin would be pushing it to get on the front row of any race let alone win one next year. However, with the development of all the different compounds, the way they last, the way they might handle a damp track, and with the money available from the works teams, who knows??

[Jay]

Sorry for the confusion.

[Katie]

Chow,
Montoya was much better at losing this season than last year. In the past though, he has been known to throw some temper tantrums when things did not go his way. I do think that he has matured though (he got use to DNF's in 2000). Besides, there is no way anyone would put up with any complaining during his first season in F1. Most drivers wait until their first season ends before they complain about their cars, bosses, competitors, etc. I think that Montoya will be well behaved at Williams.

[Carla O]

i will keep an open mind, but i think that there is so much hype created around montoya he will have a lot to prove.

When i think of drivers coming from CART i can't help to think of Andretti who was soooo bad it made me laugh...

JV made it really well, but he is a great driver - must be in the blood...

JB has potential, and i hope Benetton won't be a waste of time for him... I do think he and Fisi will be kind of even.

Hugs
Carla

[Minardi fan]

Originally posted by Katie
In the past though, he has been known to throw some temper tantrums when things did not go his way.

Such as when he had to *shock horror* race Marques for position...