3 Litre Touring Cars

[acotrel]

I've got a question for this forum? Why are we racing 5 Litre V8s In Australia when noone drives them on public roads?
GMH a few days ago announced it is about to sack 1400 workers at Elizabeth SA. It's new model is due to be released in June 2006. It will probably be a 4 valve motor at last! Perhaps it might also be fuel economical. But it seems GMH aren't confident about selling many of them. Perhaps the propaganda about our 'booming economy' is bull****?
I would have thought that our efforts in racing touring cars would be more productive, if the development was directed at something a lot of people actually use.
I know V8 Supercars are spectacular, and the young guys get the big adrenalin rush from watching them, but they are ALL CRAP. Noone buys them, as the petrol's too dear!
In any case I believe, a good 3 litre V6 with 4 valve heads should actually be faster!
I suggest racing is not all about good competition, you can get that with a Formula Vee. Racing improves the breed, however I suggest the development should serve some purpose!
Can anyone tell me whether there is an International 3L Class for Racing Touring Cars? Perhaps we could even promote Australian product there?

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by acotrel

Can anyone tell me whether there is an International 3L Class for Racing Touring Cars? Perhaps we could even promote Australian product there?

Don't know about 3L.

WTCC, BTCC (UK), DPM (Germany), STCC (Sweden), DTC (Danmark), : 2L engines, 4, 5 or 6 cylinders
DTM (Germany): 4L V8

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by acotrel

I've got a question for this forum? Why are we racing 5 Litre V8s In Australia when noone drives them on public roads?
GMH a few days ago announced it is about to sack 1400 workers at Elizabeth SA. It's new model is due to be released in June 2006. It will probably be a 4 valve motor at last! Perhaps it might also be fuel economical. But it seems GMH aren't confident about selling many of them. Perhaps the propaganda about our 'booming economy' is bull****?
I would have thought that our efforts in racing touring cars would be more productive, if the development was directed at something a lot of people actually use.
I know V8 Supercars are spectacular, and the young guys get the big adrenalin rush from watching them, but they are ALL CRAP. Noone buys them, as the petrol's too dear!
In any case I believe, a good 3 litre V6 with 4 valve heads should actually be faster!
I suggest racing is not all about good competition, you can get that with a Formula Vee. Racing improves the breed, however I suggest the development should serve some purpose!
Can anyone tell me whether there is an International 3L Class for Racing Touring Cars? Perhaps we could even promote Australian product there?

they race 5 liter v8s because at the time the series came out, thats what was in both the falcon and the commodore.

your suggestion about good 3 litre v6 is probbaly lacking. yes they could be fater than the v8, but the current v8 could be faster is restrictions were reduced. they are there to provide an eeffective price cap, because the reduction in technology keeps the rest in the game.

and people do buy them. and many more would if they could. but many cant afford new cars at all.

We cant afford to drive open wheelers on the road either but F1 still use them

[WebberForWDC]

There are no 3L touring cars, closest would be a handful of the cars running around in SCCA in America.

Do remember lots of people still buy SS's and HSV's and GT's etc. And would you rather run cheaper well-proven 5L race-engines, or try to wring some modern expensive speed from the latest LS6 or porky BOSS motor and make the teams broke by constantly changing the base engine.

And especially those Holden-supporters who go out of their way to fit the "air vent guards" or nostril bonnet or Monaro lights on the VX etc. or HSV gauges in the SS etc. as non-standard equipment! I mean that the bloodly VX-based nostril bonnet and VY supercar splitter fit together on the same holden (both the Monaro AND Ute drift cars hehe, complete with VZ airvent guards) shows what a half-baked upgrade the VY was (especially the interior being 85% the same as the VT what a farce), there is no way a BA bonnet would fit on an AU and yet all Holden did was add square edges to the VX headlights!

Anyhow I would hardly call the V8 models "irrelevant"!

If V8 Falcodores are irrelevant, then the DTM is totally ludicrous with their spaceframe Mugen Honda powered Audis! DTM went for V6 in the 90s to cheaper long-life race bred V8s in the 00s.... So they appear to have gone the exact opposite of acotrel's argument, and they aren't stupid so it's quite clear that V8 beats V6 by miles, it's just more practical and more fan-friendly.

[Falcadore]

Three litre touring car racing died an un-supported and unlamented death in 1984. Leave it there please. Nobody supported it then, why should they do so now?

Additionally, you complain about there being no 5 litre V8 productions cars in Oz. There are no three litre V6s either, so how is that in any way an improvement? You'd certainly loose a swag of V8 fans.

So what is the real reason behind the complaint?

[acotrel]

Are the V8 owners happy with the recent increase in petrol prices? Why does anyone need a 5 litre motor in a car used to chug between traffic lights?

[acotrel]

I live in rural Vic. I only know one person with a modern V8, and that's an auto. So the Holdens are 3.6 Litre, sorry about the lack of accuracy. My point is that Group N Historic Touring cars is extremely popular, for the reason that we all used to drive the garbage itself, in our youth, and we can identify it. I like the technology in F1, but I've got no understanding whatsoever of what the driver is doing, or experiencing, so it has less appeal.
I suggest we should race what people actually drive! Then when we 'improve the breed', it would serve some purpose, other than to give some young idiots a stiff!

[retro]

Keep the v8's but run them on an Ethanol blend and call it *green racing*...the more you use the more you save???

[RayF]

Originally Posted by acotrel

I've got a question for this forum? Why are we racing 5 Litre V8s In Australia when noone drives them on public roads?
GMH a few days ago announced it is about to sack 1400 workers at Elizabeth SA. It's new model is due to be released in June 2006. It will probably be a 4 valve motor at last!
Perhaps it might also be fuel economical. But it seems GMH aren't confident about selling many of them. Perhaps the propaganda about our 'booming economy' is bull****?
I would have thought that our efforts in racing touring cars would be more productive, if the development was directed at something a lot of people actually use.
I know V8 Supercars are spectacular, and the young guys get the big adrenalin rush from watching them, but they are ALL CRAP. Noone buys them, as the petrol's too dear!
In any case I believe, a good 3 litre V6 with 4 valve heads should actually be faster!
I suggest racing is not all about good competition, you can get that with a Formula Vee. Racing improves the breed, however I suggest the development should serve some purpose!
Can anyone tell me whether there is an International 3L Class for Racing Touring Cars? Perhaps we could even promote Australian product there?

Not correct about no one driving V8's. Ford and Holden sell about 2000 V8's a month. There is also a crossover effect with the six cylinder cars, of about 10000 a month are being sold at the moment (but steadily falling). So its more about Falcon vs Commodore.
The current 6 cylinder Holden is already a four valve per cylinder engine. But there are no four valve per cylinder GM V8's anywhere in the world, so that is not going to happen.
And what 3L engined cars do you refer to? Camry? (Magna has a 3.5L V6, soon to be a 3.8L.)
And it is highly unlikely that a 3L will be faster than a 5L. Unless the 3 litre engine revs to over ten thousand RPM or has twin turbos, it will have no chance of producing more power than the current V8's.
And motor racing is about motor racing. We get far too caught up about this racing improves the breed stuff. In the early nineties, the Williams F1 cars used bits off Honda road cars. Very little, if almost nothing, is learned off racing technology these days that is applied to road cars.
Ray

[Falcadore]

Well if you mean the Commodore style engine then effectively you mean a four litre V6 series.

Except the Falcon isn't a V6 of course.

Determining parity between the two would be a nightmare.

You also refer to the popularity of Historic Touring Cars. Well despite the presence of plenty of XU1s and British built Capris, no six cylinders are winning races are they? It's all the big iron, Falcons, Mustangs, Monaros, Camaros, V8s all.

OK it was about identifying with Commodores and Falcons was it? Every attempt in the last 20 years to vere away from V8s has proven the complete falacy that anything might by more popular than V8s. Why do you think you have the answer now when decades of empirical experience has told us you are wrong?

[racer69]

Originally Posted by Falcadore

Three litre touring car racing died an un-supported and unlamented death in 1984. Leave it there please. Nobody supported it then, why should they do so now?

It effectively died in 1981, when the ARDC upped the class limit for the Better Brakes Touring Car Series at Amaroo from 3 litres to 3.5 litres to accomodate the JPS BMW 635csi for the Allan Grice/Frank Gardner team.

Prior to that the class was very well supported (at Amaroo anyway), providing spectacular action during the mid-late 70s.


With regards to the topic, i'm all for 3 litre V6s, 2 litre fours, 1600cc, 5 litre V8s whatever, rather than ban one of the other, why not run them together..........

[Robert Ryan]

Racer69...No Way. Let us leave"Let us dream up a new class , because I think it would be a good idea" discussions alone and try and improve, the ACTUAL classes we do have.

[kramer]

Originally Posted by Robert Ryan

Racer69...No Way. Let us leave"Let us dream up a new class , because I think it would be a good idea" discussions alone and try and improve, the ACTUAL classes we do have.

Indeed. There are far too many perfectly good classes now. Adding new classes (Saloon cars, Commodore Cup, Aussie Racers, V8 Utes, to name but a few) just dilutes the quality available in existing classes. Suffering, perfectly good categories like Sports Sedans, production sports cars, 'prototype' sports cars (the old Group A), Formula Vee, Formula Ford, Formula 3, Formula 2, Formula 4000 are in more desperate need of cash and talent injections.

And on the original point - 5 litre V8s are not about a representation of what we drive; it's about what was practical at the time and what keeps working now. NASCAR does not use the engines that the road versions of the racers use. Most NASCAR shapes are based on front wheel drive six cylinder cars.

It's not about relevance any more - it's about entertainment and selling a mobile billboard.



Kramer (and I liked the Amaroo series too)

[Henry]

It was the late Howard Marsden who said (more than 20 years ago IIRC) that Australian car buyers dream about v8's and drive sixes... and it still rings true... with a new XR8 costing a good 10K more than most of the sixes (for example), it's hard to come up with the extra dough for many... and the ol' novated lease will only go so far...

[racer69]

Originally Posted by Robert Ryan

Racer69...No Way. Let us leave"Let us dream up a new class , because I think it would be a good idea" discussions alone and try and improve, the ACTUAL classes we do have.

A) I never propose any new class in my post, i just say i like abit of variety in my racing

B) The class basically does exist in amongst others, Sports Sedans, Performance Cars and Improved Production

[Falcadore]

racer69: the class actually does exist, more or less as acotrel described it already.

Saloon Cars.

So instead of knocking down V8Supercars, acotrel, why don't you get on the Saloon Car bandwagon, particularly as they are upgrading to AU/VT bodystyles.

I tells ya, I know where you can buy one of the best EA Saloon Cars in the country - just hit the market, proven winner with a nice bunch of spares.

[Robert Ryan]

With regards to the topic, i'm all for 3 litre V6s, 2 litre fours, 1600cc, 5 litre V8s whatever, rather than ban one of the other, why not run them together
Racer 69...that would be a NEW CLASS.
The class basically does exist in amongst others, Sports Sedans, Performance Cars and Improved Production
They are EXISTING classes let us support them.

[acotrel]

If there is no intention to boost sales of road cars which resemble V8 Supercars, why aren't we racing under NASCAR rules in Oz? Seems to me that trying to boost sales of V8s with auto boxes is pretty pointless.
It would have been sensible, back when V8 Supercars started, to regiment the class to encourage development of the next generation of road cars, using existing models i.e. the V6 Commodore, 6 cyl. Falcon, and the V6 Mitsubishi?
When I was a kid, I had about three V8s, then I grew up and bought something a bit more sensible. My V8s never got more than 15 MPG.
I often wonder why Ford V8s were never made in 4 valve versions. I suppose it was just a matter of giving the minimum to satisfy the customer?

[peckstar]

the current ford v8 is a 4v motor (or it can be 3v).

We dont race under NASCAR rules because australians like cars to turn left and right. the NASCAR experiment failed.

And yes it may have been sensible, but not very exciting. as its already been said, and based on what you have said, you agree. we would love v8's but sensible family life (read getting older) means we make sacrifices. eg 6 cylinder.

[Razor]

Well, to day at school, in science, if we recycled things that are made of plastic (a product of crude oil), instead of putting it in land fill and using more oil, we could have more fuel for our cars.

[Airhead]

This is in the bounds of the original topic I think but on a tangent...

The thing that got me was that 1400 people were being laid off. At work we have a smattering of different cars, but the new CEO likes Toyotas so it looks like thats where we are going. All of them are imported these days which for a government agency isn't a good look. I must be old fashioned, we should be in Fords and Holdens...

[acotrel]

Originally Posted by AMoffat

This is in the bounds of the original topic I think but on a tangent...

The thing that got me was that 1400 people were being laid off. At work we have a smattering of different cars, but the new CEO likes Toyotas so it looks like thats where we are going. All of them are imported these days which for a government agency isn't a good look. I must be old fashioned, we should be in Fords and Holdens...

You comment highlights a deficiency in government puchasing policies. I believe govt agencies show preference to ISO9000 certified suppliers. How many Australian auto manufacturers have their quality management systems certified? Why should anyone including govt departments show preference to a company which cannot compete on quality basis? I believe in buying Australian made, however would you buy a truckload of maure because it is cheap?
I don't believe in price control, however I suggest the percentage 'markup' on imported goods should be regulated. This would mean that to maintain profit levels , importers would concentrate on buying more expensive quality items. Australia can and must compete on quality.

[SkaifeHRT]

In the early nineties, the Williams F1 cars used bits off Honda road cars

.

Actually, by the early ninties, Williams were using Renault engines. The last year Williams used Honda engines was 1987.

[Mark Webber]

I agree with a six cyl main class as all makes would comply . The V8 area is long past its used by date the engines are not in production any more for sale in the cars !!!
the success is the management of the series not the product .
I race saloon cars and the platform is fantastic and our cars are off a 3ke base
a full blown / race 6cyl class would work and work well as AVESCO would have all the media to support it and the public would follow .
it makes more sense it could bulid /develop better road cars .

Death to the V8supercars sounds great to where do I sign

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by acotrel

If there is no intention to boost sales of road cars which resemble V8 Supercars, why aren't we racing under NASCAR rules in Oz? Seems to me that trying to boost sales of V8s with auto boxes is pretty pointless.
It would have been sensible, back when V8 Supercars started, to regiment the class to encourage development of the next generation of road cars, using existing models i.e. the V6 Commodore, 6 cyl. Falcon, and the V6 Mitsubishi?
When I was a kid, I had about three V8s, then I grew up and bought something a bit more sensible. My V8s never got more than 15 MPG.
I often wonder why Ford V8s were never made in 4 valve versions. I suppose it was just a matter of giving the minimum to satisfy the customer?

V8Supercar IS NASCAR. It's our interpretation of more or less the same concept modified for the specifics of the Australian motor racing industry.

When the Group 3A regulations were developed back in 1992 they got it right. They correctly determined that entertainment was going to be more important to the sports future viability the technical relevance. Group A had proven that for an extremely local and isolated industry like Australia, all a production based set of regulations would do is allow dominance from overseas models who were better able to develop a car specifically for racing.

Six cylinder touring cars are not going to bring crowds to the fences. One thing recognised long ago, and consistently proven, is the racefans will demand a V8 engine in their touring cars, regardless of other factors. Its a sweeping generalisation, but a valid one nonetheless.

You say when you were a kid you owned V8s. There you have it. Even yourself you've acknowledged that V8s have a draw. Motorsport is not a sensible activity you have to remember. It's brash, loud and spectacular. There is no room in it for technical common sense that overrides the entertainment side of the sport.