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Old 6 Dec 2018, 15:49 (Ref:3868301)   #3346
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Originally Posted by wnut View Post
Unlimited CFD
right! and with the spoils going to those who can afford the most computing power, hire the most staff, those who can investigate more development paths before settling on the best solution.

at risk of being a broken record on this but havent we been down this road before?

access to money should not be the defining characteristic of any sport imo.
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Old 6 Dec 2018, 16:24 (Ref:3868310)   #3347
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But look how much money they're saving with the testing ban!


Sigh.
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Old 6 Dec 2018, 17:18 (Ref:3868324)   #3348
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Originally Posted by wnut View Post
Unlimited CFD
I have mixed feelings about this. I haven't looked, but I assume the CFD computing limits were set quite a long time ago (when measured in computer technology years). I can imagine that the prior limits may be absurdly low today. They may have just felt that raw compute power is cheap enough that it shouldn't be something high on the list of limiting. Especially if it is billed as a cost saving device.

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Originally Posted by chillibowl View Post
right! and with the spoils going to those who can afford the most computing power, hire the most staff, those who can investigate more development paths before settling on the best solution.

at risk of being a broken record on this but havent we been down this road before?

access to money should not be the defining characteristic of any sport imo.
I agree on the "money" stuff as that is my mantra which seeps into most of my posts. My gut tends to tell me that this may not trigger any type of significant staffing up of people resources, but may just allow them to iterate quicker. But there is another side of CFD that is missing...

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But look how much money they're saving with the testing ban!
My understanding is that CFD is only going to be as good as your modelling methods. And that you can crank out virtual designs all day (and night) long, but the real question is... will it perform as expected when actually on the car on track?

I suspect a large part of actual wind tunnel time (which I believe is still controlled) is used to correlate and confirm the CFD results. And even then, you really don't know if it is "good" until you get on track. So if you are doing a crappy job with your CFD and tunnel testing you will struggle on track. And you may be at a loss as to "why" it's not working as expected. We seem to routinely hear about "bad correlation" driving teams down dead end paths and that can set the tone for an entire season (or more).

So I also am a fan of increasing "on track" testing time. Iteration via CFD and being able to physically verify should help teams create workable solutions. But trying to stuff this validation phase into part of Friday free practice is not enough!

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Old 7 Dec 2018, 09:23 (Ref:3868488)   #3349
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Originally Posted by Richard Casto View Post
My understanding is that CFD is only going to be as good as your modelling methods. And that you can crank out virtual designs all day (and night) long, but the real question is... will it perform as expected when actually on the car on track?

I suspect a large part of actual wind tunnel time (which I believe is still controlled) is used to correlate and confirm the CFD results. And even then, you really don't know if it is "good" until you get on track. So if you are doing a crappy job with your CFD and tunnel testing you will struggle on track. And you may be at a loss as to "why" it's not working as expected.
Richard
So basically the more sophisticated the CFD tools you are using the more accurate you can expect the results to be.

The minnows will be wasting their time on their CFD analysis while the rich and entitled teams will be developing at a rapid rate.

Not good!
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Old 7 Dec 2018, 16:21 (Ref:3868592)   #3350
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Originally Posted by wnut View Post
So basically the more sophisticated the CFD tools you are using the more accurate you can expect the results to be.

The minnows will be wasting their time on their CFD analysis while the rich and entitled teams will be developing at a rapid rate.

Not good!
It's also down to how good the initial CAD model of the car is, which is the starting point for a CFD simulation.
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Old 7 Dec 2018, 20:55 (Ref:3868637)   #3351
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Originally Posted by wnut View Post
So basically the more sophisticated the CFD tools you are using the more accurate you can expect the results to be.

The minnows will be wasting their time on their CFD analysis while the rich and entitled teams will be developing at a rapid rate.

Not good!
I think you are generally right, but for the wrong reason.

I think the software and hardware is probably nearly commodity at this point. It is about how you use it. So CFD time itself is probably not costly (in the big picture). What the top teams will continue to be able to do is to hire the best people who are good at getting usable results.

But... in the end, it also doesn't mean small teams can't figure it out. Which is why I think overall this is a good thing. It at least gives the smaller teams more of an opportunity to figure things out.

I am also in no way saying small teams are populated by idiots. Its more about the good ones are more likely to eventually get poached by the bigger teams. For example... Adrian Newey didn't start at the top. He followed the money and/or teams that could allow him to put cars on the top of the podium. But he did help those he worked for on his upward climb.

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Old 7 Dec 2018, 21:04 (Ref:3868638)   #3352
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Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith View Post
It's also down to how good the initial CAD model of the car is, which is the starting point for a CFD simulation.
I am not an expert on this, but I think it is less about the 3D car model (those are probably well defined), but the "model" of the interaction of the car with everything else. Static is easy (stable car going straight in clean air) Dynamic conditions are hard. Stuff like following other cars and being in turbulent flow or the dynamics of your own car as is moves around on the track.

Watch slow motion video of cars and you see things like suspension movement, tire vibration, or even small fluttering of various body parts such as the wings or even engine covers (I know, there is no "movable aero"... yeah right!). You know this stuff likely matters. So you put all of that into a computer model. Or if the list of variables is infinite (you can't model everything, or at least it is hard to do so), then how to you figure out which ones have the largest impact and which you ignore.

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Old 7 Dec 2018, 21:08 (Ref:3868639)   #3353
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Does anyone know if the software used for CAD and CFD is off the shelf or bespoke?
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Old 7 Dec 2018, 21:35 (Ref:3868641)   #3354
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Does anyone know if the software used for CAD and CFD is off the shelf or bespoke?
You are not asking me. And I want to hear the thoughts from others. But I suspect the answer is "both". There are inexpensive (or open source) solutions, but also serious solutions to are used for multiple purposes/industries (aerospace, etc.) and not just for "air" but other fluids (like pump design). Anyhow, those should be viewed more like Microsoft Word or Excel. In that they are tools or a framework for whatever you create. I expect each team has plenty of bespoke "stuff" that ties into off the shelf CFD frameworks/tooling. I doubt anyone is implementing a fully bespoke solution given they would be replicating features already available (cheaper) in off the shelf solutions. But that also means that given these are "generic" there is no "F1 aero design" software that you can just buy.

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Old 8 Dec 2018, 05:02 (Ref:3868686)   #3355
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So basically the more sophisticated the CFD tools you are using the more accurate you can expect the results to be.

The minnows will be wasting their time on their CFD analysis while the rich and entitled teams will be developing at a rapid rate.

Not good!
But no different to using wind tunnels 24/7. The best teams at doing whatever it takes to win will always be the best and given the right rule set that might not be the wealthiest team as has been seen in the past on the odd occasion.
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Old 8 Dec 2018, 05:13 (Ref:3868688)   #3356
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But no different to using wind tunnels 24/7. The best teams at doing whatever it takes to win will always be the best and given the right rule set that might not be the wealthiest team as has been seen in the past on the odd occasion.
Aren't teams given limited run time, for both CFD and wind tunnel testing?
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Old 8 Dec 2018, 10:24 (Ref:3868714)   #3357
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Aren't teams given limited run time, for both CFD and wind tunnel testing?
They were.

Looks like the FIA has either found something that they don't want to have found regarding CFD, or they simply cannot police the usage.

Guess Richard's supposition that they are using of the shelf CFD programs, how do you stop the use of the tools by engineers at home, in other facilities etc.?
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Old 8 Dec 2018, 15:05 (Ref:3868764)   #3358
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Isn’t the CFD useage change related to research for the new regs?
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Old 8 Dec 2018, 23:56 (Ref:3868874)   #3359
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Isnít the CFD useage change related to research for the new regs?
That's what they claimed Adam, but no matter how you look at it its a leg up for the members of the F1 Strategy Group and Mercedes in particular who have a huge CFD operation based in India.

Who else has a specific branch of a multi-national company dedicated to CFD?
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Old 9 Dec 2018, 07:56 (Ref:3868906)   #3360
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Ah, Mercedes, I see your issue. It’s dedicated to Research, but includes CFD. I suspect the F1 CFD is done in Brackley. Whatever the F1 team will have access to enough CFD you’re right. I’d worry about creep.

I only mentioned it as I hadn’t seen what was said about why it had been opened up in the thread.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14...eaked-for-2019
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Another adjustment to the sporting regulations confirmed at Wednesday's World Motor Sport Council meeting is to allow unrestricted CFD simulations to be carried out for the development of cars in accordance with the 2021 regulations.

This practice was carried out previously when teams were working to future regulations, and reflects the fact that they will be providing feedback that will help F1 and the FIA shape the 2021 rules.
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