[Driver] Ricciardo - Verstappen Battle

[littleman]

It was obvious to any experienced team manager that the Verstappen/Ricciardo clash had been brewing from the very first lap.

Several close encounters, as the race progressed, only served to intensify matters. Christian Horner was well aware tensions were building to a crescendo and could have, and should have, defused the situation by taking a strong and clear managerial decision.

Red Bull just weren't on the ultimate pace this weekend so, after the pit stops, both drivers should have been told to hold position. Keep pushing by all means in case race circumstances suddenly changed and gave them an opportunity to exploit. If that didn't happen, bring the cars home 4th and 5th and try again in Spain.

Verstappen is 20 years old, Ricciardo is 28 years old. There are times, and today is one of them, when a clear and experienced voice needs to intervene.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by littleman

It was obvious to any experienced team manager that the Verstappen/Ricciardo clash had been brewing from the very first lap.

Several close encounters, as the race progressed, only served to intensify matters. Christian Horner was well aware tensions were building to a crescendo and could have, and should have, defused the situation by taking a strong and clear managerial decision.

Red Bull just weren't on the ultimate pace this weekend so, after the pit stops, both drivers should have been told to hold position. Keep pushing by all means in case race circumstances suddenly changed and gave them an opportunity to exploit. If that didn't happen, bring the cars home 4th and 5th and try again in Spain.

Verstappen is 20 years old, Ricciardo is 28 years old. There are times, and today is one of them, when a clear and experienced voice needs to intervene.

while i completely agree with all of that, i am sort of looking at the indecision from the pit wall through a lens of contract negotiations.

perhaps a bit tin hat but they didnt have to tell MV to back off so no issue from him and some of the shine just came of DR, Does Ferrari want a driver who needs to be told over the comms to back off? isnt Merc happier with a driver like Bottas with no need to revisit the rules of engagement during the LH vs NR era?

indeed points were lost but in a way they also just reigned in both their drivers. in hindsight, a tidey outcome from management's perspective...from a certain point of view that is.

[peebee2]

Very good point, RIC would not have endeared himself to potential employers today...

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by steve nielsen

when you see the outside view Max realy did not move that much, the onboard just makes it see that way because Daniel is

Well Verstappen covered the inside, THEN Verstappen opened the inside. So Daniel went for the inside.

Quite simple.

But then Verstappen coverd the inside again!? Inexplicable manueovre and very dangerous.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

some of the shine just came of DR, Does Ferrari want a driver who needs to be told over the comms to back off?

Must strongly disagree.

DR was told to overtake Verstappen, "Get him again". He was NOT told to back off.

[peebee2]

That’s exactly the point. He should have known to and RB didn’t tell him to.

[littleman]

The Red Bull management, particularly Christian Horner, allowed both their drivers to indulge in a totally unnecessary, ego driven, personal dog fight for 4th and 5th places.

Allowing your drivers to have an almighty, in-house public punch up over 4th place is unprofessional to say the least. Both drivers played their part in this Red Bull embarrasment but poor management let it run to it's inevitable conclusion.

[greenracer]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Well Verstappen covered the inside, THEN Verstappen opened the inside. So Daniel went for the inside.

Quite simple.

But then Verstappen coverd the inside again!? Inexplicable manueovre and very dangerous.

Agreed. How many times can he keep doing this? Someone will be hurt by this behaviour

[wnut]

Originally Posted by littleman

The Red Bull management, particularly Christian Horner, allowed both their drivers to indulge in a totally unnecessary, ego driven, personal dog fight for 4th and 5th places.

Allowing your drivers to have an almighty, in-house public punch up over 4th place is unprofessional to say the least. Both drivers played their part in this Red Bull embarrasment but poor management let it run to it's inevitable conclusion.

Yup! Was only ever going to have this result.

Would also like to see the braking traces, why didn't the stewards call for them? Looked like Verstappen braked very early. Brake test?

[greenracer]

I will show colours here ,Aussie thru and thru, Mark Webber suffered from an arrogant German and now DR suffering the same fate. Is it a German or a European thing to deny anybody a fair go unless they are European? Drivers from the Southern Hemisphere and the Americas have all figured well in World Championships, jealousy? Brabham, Jones, Hulme,Villenvue,Fangio, Senna, McLaren, Webber,etc.

[Razzzor]

He could have or Daniel just missed his braking point because he was focused on the back of Vers.

To me it's 60/40 Daniel at fault. Verstappen moved twice, but then Ricciardo had a small opportunity of time to back out of it or move a third time to the outside. Maybe he would have clipped him anyway. But you don't HAVE to pass someone if there's no room. If Verstappen didn't move again he would have been in the middle of the track and things would have been very close between them heading into the corner. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Ricciardo just locked up and took them both out ala De Vries/Russell in the F2 I think it was. Or just like what happened to Vettel who had a lot more space than Ricciardo would have in the same move (except Bottas avoided him). Look at Norris in the F2 race, did he just divebomb in desperation? Dric should know better tbh. He did some daring passes at China and got celebrated for it, this time it didn't work out.

The difference in speed with that straight and DRS also has to be taken into consideration. It's downright dangerous at time the closing speed of the car behind heading towards heavy braking.

[Razzzor]

The other issue I have is that previous battle where Daniel had the move done on the outside, yet Verstappen just won't give up and keeps a foot of his front wing in there. There's 4 things that can happen in that situation:

1. Ricciardo can't turn in, hits the wall.
3. Ricciardo can't turn in but somehow still makes the corner but it wrecks his exit allowing Verstappen back alongside.
3. Ricciardo turns in as any driver normally would, they make contact race over (most likely scenario).
4. Regardless of Ricciardo, Verstappen can't make the corner properly from the narrow entry and plows into the side of Ricciardo. In fact, this did happen on exit! Only they got away with it being only light contact.

3/4 of those conclusions are contact/possible wrecks. This sort of racing is just pure arrogance, and when it's against you're own team mate he should be reprimanded by RB. It reminds me of Marquez as of late. Verstappen is just unnecessarily putting himself into situations where there's a high chance of a wreck. I don't know why he's doing it, perhaps he just wants to scare his competitors into a bit of a Schumacher/Senna/Van Gisbergen type situation where others are afraid to race him. Or he's just extremely arrogant on track, probably much like his old man. I feel like he needs to sit down when he has some time and watch some races over the last few decades to get grounding again on racecraft, what's acceptable and what's not. Right now he's just crashing too much, and yes if this was Kyvat there's no argument that he'd be replaced by Sainz Jr by now. In fact Kyvat's season when he was replaced was no nowhere near this bad, he had a 2nd place finish didn't he? Verstappen has crashed at almost every round at some point. (ps I am a Max fan believe it or not).

[greenracer]

What is the score for Verstapppen 4 races , for 4
incidents affecting others results , get real stewards. whatsmore get real red bull tell him to pull his head in and tow the the line or else

[FAS33]

Max Crashtappen at it again lmao

[HDTVKSS]

The rules say not to make more than 1 move in the breaking zone. this is what happens when you break that rule with a committed overtake in progress.

[Trev Campbell]

I understand that Max is very talented and exciting. But the gutlessness of the stewards in not handing a penalty to Verstappen for multiple rule breaches is what is allowing him to keep doing these things. The boy does not allow racing room, moves around in the braking zones (A rule that was going to be enforced because of his own antics) and still he is not handed any meaningful penalty. How long until he seriously hurts himself or someone else.

[steve_r]

The double moves were on the straight, before the braking zone. I'm not saying his weaving is acceptable by the way.

[GregUK]

The Stewards' decision:

The Stewards heard from Daniel Ricciardo, the driver of car 3, Max Verstappen, the driver of car 33 and the team representative.
Both drivers contributed to the collision. The driver of car 33 made two moves, both of which were relatively minor.
The driver of car 3 admitted he left his move to overtake on the left, too late.
It was obvious to the stewards that although the incident had its origins in the moves by car 33, the driver of car 3 also contributed to the incident.
Both drivers expressed regret about their respective contributions to the incident, during the Stewards’ hearing.

The same wording was used for both decisions which also noted that neither driver had previously been given a reprimand this year.

The regulatory breach was L IV 2d:

Causing a collision, repetition of serious mistakes or the appearance of a lack of control over the car (such as leaving the track) will be reported to the Stewards and may entail the imposition of penalties up to and including the exclusion of any driver concerned.

Not directly referenced is L IV 2b of which an extract is:

More than one change of direction to defend a position is not permitted.

[midgetman]

Hahahaha that's a good story concocted in the truck to present to the stewards. We've all been there, running through with our driver what to say. Nicely done guys, you got away with it.

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by GregUK

IV 2b of which an extract is:

More than one change of direction to defend a position is not permitted.

One thing I'd be interested to know - is it a case of one change of direction is permitted in each 'zone' - or one change of direction between each corner?

The reason I ask?

As I saw it, along the straight VER was keeping to the left initially, as RIC closed behind.

Then, VER made one move whilst under throttle - over to the right slightly to defend a position.
After that, in the next zone (braking), VER made one move whilst under braking to defend a position.
So - VER made one move in each zone, both to defend his position.


Watching the onboard from 1:39 in this video, it's hard to even detect VER's move to the right. http://video.sky.it/sport/formula1/g...en/v417398.vid

[S griffin]

I agree with the stewards and RBR, both drivers should take blame for this. It's usually the driver behind's fault if he rams someone and certainly Danny needs to take blame for that, made a bit of a misjudgment there. But Max did move twice down the straight and although his move in the braking zone wasn't much of a move, it was still unnecessary. So yes, both could have avoided it

[steve_r]

I think we can sometimes forget that during the finger pointing and apportionment of blame that the RBR drivers gave us some fantastic wheel to wheel racing over the course of the GP. How boring would it have been if they had simply followed line astern, or indeed if they used team orders to change positions?

The RBR race long battle was to the detriment of the team of course, and put both drivers at risk of being overhauled by Sainz, Hulkenburg and even LeClerc.

[littleman]

I'm still convinced Christian Horner, and other senior Red Bull management, shirked their responsibilities in Baku.
Allowing their drivers to race each other is to be applauded but yesterday it was obvious the Verstappen/Ricciardo battle had gone beyond "normal" team mate rivalry.
It had desended into a very personal battle between two drivers hell bent on establishing themselves as clear "Number One".
Verstappen is a niggly driver with an element of nastiness about everything he does on track. Ricciardo is a much more reasonable guy but fiercely competitive too. There's no way, at this stage of his career,that he's going to allow Verstappen to get the upper hand. Classic Irresistable Force vs Immovable Object.

Horner cannot place all the blame on the drivers. He allowed it to happen on his watch and should be apologising to the Factory too.

[GregUK]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

One thing I'd be interested to know - is it a case of one change of direction is permitted in each 'zone' - or one change of direction between each corner?

Here's the current Regulation in full:

Overtaking, according to the circumstances, may be carried out on either the right or the left.
A driver may not deliberately leave the track without justifiable reason.
More than one change of direction to defend a position is not permitted.
Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off-line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.
However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited.
Any driver who appears guilty of any of the above offences will be reported to the Stewards.

There is no mention of 'zones'.

My immediate thought was that Max moved twice and didn't allow a car's width. Had he allowed a car's width, Daniel would have been down the inside (which he was pretty committed to) and would either have made the corner or not. For me, Max was to blame.

The Stewards, Garry Connelly; Dennis Dean; Anar Shukurov and Tom Kristensen saw it differently - as they are fully entitled to do - particularly with the benefit of all the data and video at their disposal and the testimony of the drivers involved.

There's a bigger debate at play here - what sort of racing do we want from F1?

Do we want races limited to a few 'surgical' passes, or do we want a more 'elbows out' style of gladiatoral combat?

[Greem]

Originally Posted by GregUK

Here's the current Regulation in full:

Overtaking, according to the circumstances, may be carried out on either the right or the left.

That's one of the best rule clarifications *ever*.

Do we want races limited to a few 'surgical' passes, or do we want a more 'elbows out' style of gladiatoral combat?

As much as it made me groan with frustration yesterday (and I'm not a massive RBR fan by any stretch of the imagination), moments like the RIC/VER collision are part of what F1 is all about. Think about it - we can all remember with immense clarity any number of teammate collisions, and whilst they might be frustrating or stupid or some other belittling word, we do remember them.

Personally I think the current friction at RBR is brilliant. Ricciardo's playing the elder statesman role and getting better at it every day, and Max is nipping at his heels like the self-entitled young charger that he's been modelled into.

More of that, please!