Does snatching promote poor marshalling?

[Andrew Hornsey]

In the light of the earlier thread, I would like to ask "does snatching promote poor marshalling".

I have been around a bit now (No funny comments from those that know me :-)) and have seen marshalling at many circuits using many different techniques. I have only operated as a snatch crew member twice, but have acted as an IO working with Snatch crews on many occasions.

I seem to find that the use of a snatch vehicle can lead to a team on the corner being less likely to deal with an incident, because the snatch vehicle will do it.

I have always thought that as the entrants pay a lot of money to go racing, our job is to keep them in the race when ever possible.

I know that Donington and Silverstone have unusually large gravel traps (Damn those F1 cars)and that moving cars can be a difficulty, but the number of times that people try seems to be decreasing.

It is not difficult, even on a poorly manned post to move many race vehicles. Just get the driver to pop it into top gear and turn it over on the starter to assist - you will very quickly get to know if it is possible to move it. I know this from experience - 2 marshls on post 4 at Donington, one caterham 20 + metres into the gravel, and one happy driver when he got back into the race.

I know that risk management is part of running a post, but the other side to this coin is what risk is there of a car hitting a snatch vehicle casing serious injury or worse to the driver or the snatch crew.

Long live good old fasioned marshalling

Andrew

[Mark Mitchell]

I recently worked at McLeans at Donington without the provisions of a snatch tractor.

The marshals on post worked damned hard all day and managed to "Free" all but a couple of cars that chose to visit us.
The marshals also appeared to be happier in the knowledge that if anything happened on our post, THEY would get to deal with it!

Each situation is different, but I would like to think that the team are at least allowed/encouraged to "Have A Go" before a snatch vehicle is deployed!

[Andrew Hornsey]

Thats what I like to hear. I must admit, I have concentrated on karts recently (cause that is my job) but I think it may be IO related more than anything - without wanting to start a war of words, it seems that if you are Silverstone based, you tend to let more things be snatched. This may be because the circuit is very different at Silverstone than Donington.

I did find that on a recent (well a year or two ago) visit to Donington, the attitude was fairly similar to that of Silverstone, which was "don't worry, the snatch vehicle can get that".

It is interesting that when I started marshalling, the only circuit to snatch was Silverstone, and all other circuits had reasonable sized gravel traps, rather than the monsterous ones they have now.

As I said earlier, I think that a good grounding in marshalling without the use of snatch vehicles can give people a good grounding in the basics.

Well done to the team that you mention though, thats what it is all about.

[EvilPumpkin]

I think it really depends on the circuit, the type of racing and also the level of training of the marshals. It also depends on the briefing the marshals have received. I have been on posts where I've been told that I am not to go trackside unless instructed to do so. So where I might have made an attempt to deal with a situation, I don't.

The gradual decrease in marshals attempting to move stuff I don't believe has anything to do with snatch vehicles. I've seen it at circuits that don't use them. It's got everything to do with low numbers and the safety of getting into a gravel trap if you believe that the drivers on the track are not necessarily going to adhere to the yellow flag.

There's also a higher level of "remote control marshalling" that goes on from the tower. I have been at incidents where I've heard screams of "get back on the bank" coming down the radio - for incidents that could quite easily have been cleared.

They're all legitimate reasons. However, they do lead to it becoming a habit - so that where you can shift a car safely, you are less inclined to do so.

Also, I have encountered quite a few cars that didn't want to be shifted - particularly if they suspected they may have gravel in the engine!

It's important to strike a balance. I don't necessarily think that waiting for a snatch vehicle is poor marshalling. At the end of the day, the first rule we are taught is "your own safety first". Going gung ho because you've been taught that only wusses wait for snatch vehicles is not a good idea either!

(Andrew, I'm not saying that's what you're suggesting btw - it's just an example of how people can take things too far the other way!)

[Phoenix1]

I am not a marshall so if my comments seem a bit daft forgive me!

I was wondering if it is possible, allowing for track conditions/marshall safety to deploy not just the marshalls but also the snatch vehicle to the car where it is unclear what is needed and if there is a yellow it is possible - provided the formulas allow for it - for a car to be lifted/towed back on the track quickly I can think of the single seaters for example getting stuck only because they are unable to get over the edge between the gravel and the circuit and are thus lifted away.

My other idea to do with this - and I am unsure about the leverage in a gravel trap etc... - is for the snatch vehicle to carry some sort of jack (I realise this might/would cost money) to lift the cars up slighty and 'wheel' them out or would this make the job harder than pushing? As I said excuse the ignorance :-S

[Andrew Hornsey]

Evilpumpkin,

You are right in the fact that I used the wrong word - poor - in the thread title. No offence taken from your reply - I cant see anything that should cause offence, anyway. What I was trying to get at, as you put so well, is the times where you can safely move a vehicle with the personnel you have, but the team are either not ready, or not willing to because of the snatch vehicle.

I know all to well that every incident can be different (I am ops manager for the UK's leading outdoor kart circuit, so see incidents every day of the week)but think that sometimes a back to basics approach can focus everybodies mind.

Of course you never put your team at risk, and risk assesment can be a personal thing, but we are all there to do a job, and I have in the past been prevented from doing that job as the I/O or Race Control order you back.

I hope people take this from the general point of view it was meant.

Andrew

[mark_l]

I did a meeting at Gerarrds, Mallory Park and before the start of practise the marshals on post got together and vowed to try and get every car that got stuck in the gravel back into the race.

We managed it for every car, bar one who had removed a wheel and was sitting in the tyre wall.

It proves that you dont need a snatch vehicle at every gravel trap providing all the marshals on post act as one, and that ending in the gravel is not always the end of drivers race.

[Stuart Hill]

We know have a similar system in operation at Prescott ie; a "snatch vehicle" for use when cars are in gravel traps. It is also capable of a "full-lift" where required but that's another story.

I know that most I/Os of the posts with gravel traps give much the same briefing but this has been aided by the Clerk's comments: "the club pay a lot of money for the vehicle so can we please be shown to at least attempt to use it".

So the briefings go along the lines of;
"I'll scramble the snatch-vehicle but we WILL have one good go to shift whatever lands with us!! If it doesn't move, then fine, the help is on it's way. If it does however start moving then the posts below us are watching for this and will intercept the snatch and send him home!! "

This method seems to please everyone, the marshals get to "have-a-go", the club are shown that we will make use of this added resource, the drivers are not always faced with a monstrous machine heading for their pride and joy (just some monstrous marshals !! , and the spectators actually get to see marshals trying to "marshal" instead of seemingly standing around with no clue what do do.

I am fully aware of the differences that a race circuit incident poses but I must say, purely from a personal perspective, that it always excites me when a circuit I/O addresses us "grunts" in a similar manner. At least we're going to be given the chance to marshal trackside unless it's pretty obvious that the offending vehicle is going no further.

You can throw all the Health and Safety issues you like in my direction and I'll always have the same answer.......

Motorsport is Dangerous. No-one forces me trackside and if I feel it's unsafe, then I won't go. But if I want to spectate then I'll pay my money and stand the other side of the fence.

[adrian carlile]

In reply I have '' Snatched '' at Donington since 1993 We only snatch if the Observer on post asks for it and the final word is given from the C O C in race control. This gives plenty of time for the IO and his crew to at least have a go at moving the car. I have even been known to help push a car out even though I was snaching at the time!!! But I have noted the drivers seem to get out of the cars more instead of waiting to be pushed out.

[Richy_Rich]

As a driver I'd much rather be pushed/heaved/bounced than snatched. I'm convinced (and I've no scientific type evidence to base this on) that it does less damage to the cars. But when you get that initial 'tug' from a tow out of the gravel, no matter how slowly the tower is going it always feels like one hell of a jolt...

[Pike]

As a marshal at Silverstone I have always been told to give the car a shove if its safe to do so and there is half a chance we can move it.

If its obvious the car is`nt going to shift because its buried in the gravel trap then there is`nt any point risking going over the bank to have a go.

The other problem that happens a lot is drivers bail out before we can get to them. You are then faced with a situation of either snatching or getting the driver back in, doing harnesses up, getting car out of gravel and then possibly having to give them a push start (depending on formula). Add to that the possibility of gravel in the important bits (i.e. brakes!) and suddendly it becomes a much safer/quicker option to snatch even though the car looks like it could be pushed out.

[Stone-kicker]

I always treat it as a challenge for the team to get the car out without resorting to the tractor but sometimes you just know it won't move.

Also, if the driver abandons ship, even if you push the car out there is nowhere to go with it due to the lack of thought/poor design of the traps and run-off areas.

[Woolley]

Power to the people!!! The best days marshalling I've had on circuits are the ones where there either is no snatch available, or I have an I/O who sees it as a last resort. I'm convinced it's faster and safer for us to move it ourselves, and if the drivers get used to the fact that there WILL be marshals out there, then you often find the yellow flag discipline is better.

I'm with you all the way on this one.

[Richard Sneader]

Andrew H I fully agree, I always get my teams to attempt at least once and if no go then we have tried. I have amazed a few observers over the years on pushing out cars in gravel traps after they said it wont push. If you have the right conditions and place your manpower correctly its amazing what can be achieved by all. Like you I have also been around for along time and experiance plays a major factor as well but am always learning as cars differ each year.
RS

[Dutch chap]

Hey, you're alive Richard!

Of course I will respond to this thread, but I’ll take some time to do this. The reason for this is obvious: I’m an experienced Dutch marshal, actually a former chief marshal, but quite critical about the Dutch approach. Nevertheless, I’m critical about the British approach as well. So I’ll take my time to make my contribution and will try not to be on some toes. (Spelling must be awful again), sorry for this.

[Stevespurr]

I have marshaled at Silverstone and Donington recently and only once did we fail to move a car to have it snatched the snatch failed as well due to a poor eye for the snatch line it pulled off!!!!!!!!!!

[EvilPumpkin]

I still think that there's a gung ho attitude displayed in some of these posts that needs to be carefully considered. Yes of course we want to shift cars whenever possible - but the attitude here from a lot of people seems to be that if you don't try to shift a car, then you're not marshalling properly - and that concerns me a great deal. Is this really the attitude to display to newer marshals who are still learning?

What also concerns me is something I've seen cropping up in a few threads recently which is armchair marshalling. There've been quite a few comments about other groups of marshals and how they dealt with situations - and how they were wrong - usually based on TV footage!

Personally, I don't believe you can make an informed comment on someone else's performance unless you happened to be in their boots. We all know that what looks easy from one angle can turn out to be extremely difficult from another. I recall an incident a few weeks ago where a marshal was being screamed at by a group of spectators to shift a car. What he could see - and they couldn't - was that the rear left wheel was missing. He was, in fact, the only person this was visible to.

As I've said before, I would always prefer to shift a car than not - and will always try to do so wherever it is sensible and safe to do so. And if I do not decide to do so, I hope that I will be given the benefit of other marshals asking for my reasons why - instead of condemning based on incomplete information.

[Stevespurr]

At both circuits we where asked to have a go at moving the vehicles before calling for snatch. We where lucky and managed to get them away with no danger to anyone.

[Richard Sneader]

Before doing anything I way up alot of factors to see if it is safe at having a go. I always speak to the first marshal who got to the car as they may have spotted something I did not see on the car, also where other cars are, manpower, weather conditions time factor and general safety, how deep into the gravel, type of vehicle, speak to the driver as something may have seized, and so on.
RS

[scorch]

What I would like to say about snatching is that it is a lot harder than people think and is totally different to 'normal marshalling'.

A lot of time you are breaking advise you have been given from the very first day you started on the bank, eg you are digging under a car with your back to the traffic on the wrong side of the car looking for a towing eye. I had a case a few years ago when we were short for a person to hook up for the snatch crew and someone from post said they would do it, after the first snatch they went to the IO and asked if someone else would do it because they felt too vulnerable.

If a snatch crew is trained and the job is done correctly then no damage is done to the car (apart from towing eyes not up to the job but that’s another story) and can be cleared to behind the barriers to avoid red flags.

In answer to the title of this thread, snatching does not promote poor marshalling, it is merely a different specially in the same way as rescue is, it’s just not seen that way.

[Stevespurr]

I was with you at Silverstone last year when you snatched Ben Clucas in the FF Scorch that was a good call!!!!!!!!

[tangoed sparky]

My attitude to snatching has changed since I did snatch training at donington over the winter. It was a surprise as I had not asked to do it but it was added to the IO training session. Getting cars out of gravel depends on a lot of things and the main one is offten the driver. I have seen drivers parked on top of the gravel and they could have got out with marshal's assistence but they choose to floor the pedal and then get themselfs beached. Maybe "how to get out of a gravel trap" should be included in the driver basic training. As for picking fault with other peoples marshaling this can be very negative for trainees or lower experienced marshals to hear. When I was in my very early years of marshaling I heard a observer picking fault with how another post had delt with an incident and generaly having a laugh at others expence. On hearing this it caused me to worry about what others thought and it knocked my confidence for quite some time. Please dont slag other marshals off. This does not meen that I am against contructive critisisum though.

[Woolley]

EP, wise words. I should have prefixed my post with the words 'as long as it is safe to do so'. Any marshalling activity should be carried out in a way that minimizes the risk as far as possible. However, it should be noted that if it is safe for the snatch tractor to be out there, then it must have been safe for us to be out there too. If not, then appropriate action should be taken by race control first.

Criticism of other marshals - unless something obviously went amiss (and we've all done it, ask crazystu about my forward defensive roll at Redgate last year!) - should be on the basis of 'how can we learn from that' rather than 'what a load of plonkers'. I've learnt lots over the years from watching the things that didn't go entirely right, and I'm sure I've given others something to think about on occasions too!

[Tracey]

One thing I hate as an incident marshal is, under instruction, running out to the car, just about touching it and being called back as it's going to be snatched. The car is never given a proper shove, I end up wasting energy for no reward (let's face it, there's a heck of a buzz getting a car free) and feel as though everyone watching thinks we're idiots. I fully understand the previous comments regarding safety, but this sort of thing still endangers us - why send a team out 'for image's sake' rather than to do the job or send the snatch in straight away?

[Micky.H]

I'd just like to re-emphasise the comment by Pike, as an IO i allways like to give it go at pushing one out, but generally i find that the drivers have jumped ship before we get a chance to give them a push.