Want to see overtaking? -- Penalize blocking

[Bluewolf]

I've seen cars coming down the straight and blocking so aggresively they've almost put the overtaker into the wall -- this should be considered so far over the racing ethic that it should require a stop and go penalty at least -- I believe the rule should be -- coming down a straightaway you can't block more than the width of your car --And by car I mean just the tub -- not the width including suspension and tires.

[Kicking-back]

They have tough rules on blocking in ChampCar and there's not much overtaking in that either.

[Knowlesy]

Blocking rules, one-move rules etc.... are to the detriment of overtaking.

[Gt_R]

Indeed.

Rules such as the one-move rule only discourage drivers from defending their position. More often than not, overtaking moves now are simply the front car choosing a line and a faster car behind taking the other and driving pass...not different from lapping.

Drivers like those in F1 spent years honing their racing skills since young. Instead of hard rules, drivers have to be informed and conferenced on what is different between hard racing and dangerous driving, told the need of being fair and safety, the risk. Dangerous driving will then subsequently be spotted, judged and punished if neccessary.

[Gt_R]

Indeed.

Rules such as the one-move rule only discourage drivers from defending their position. More often than not, overtaking moves now are simply the front car choosing a line and a faster car behind taking the other and driving pass...not different from lapping.

Drivers like those in F1 spent years honing their racing skills since young. Instead of hard rules, drivers have to be informed and conferenced on what is different between hard racing and dangerous driving, told the need of being fair and safety, the risk. Dangerous driving will then subsequently be spotted, judged and punished if neccessary.

[Draven]

I have to agree with Knowlesy an Gt_R on this one, I think it's one of the areas that stand teh best chance if no rules are applied. Leave it up to the drivers to find a way and have a go.

[sonic]

I have to say that good blocking is part of the art of racing. Why should you automatically surrrender your position because there's a faster person behind you?

blocking to the extent that you swere a competitor off the road is obviously dangerous and a step too far but there is a mechanism to deal with such behaviour already.

On the subject of overtaking I loved this from BARs geoff willis:

"I'm never really sure quite where all this enthusiasm for overtaking in Formula One comes from," he explained. "We have a qualifying system where we spend most of the weekend ordering the cars in terms of their performance so we start the race with the fastest at the front and slowest ones at the back. The logic of that doesn't support any likelihood of overtaking.

[ASCII Man]

The enthusiams is just because of the slower cars overtaking the faster ones that's so great to see!
I never thought Willis to be so clueless about something like that.

[maltafan]

I think we have very strict racing lines and therefore, changing position to overtake will hinder you, so if tracks are wider, or braking needs a bigger distance, that would increase overtaking.

[BootsOntheSide]

How often does a car overtake a faster one? If a car has a faster driver but a slower car, those two factors will combine to produce the grid order anyway. Being able to defend a position proeprly is one thing which ensures that a good driver can beat a superior car.

Over-aggressive blocking has caused few if any crashes in F1 in recent years, and the overtaking problems are caused purely by aerodynamics, and by carbon fiber brakes producing short braking distances and easier braking as Maltafan suggests. In Suzuka last year cars managed to make overtaking moves despite blocking attempts.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by sonic

I have to say that good blocking is part of the art of racing. Why should you automatically surrrender your position because there's a faster person behind you?

I can't disagree more. The art of not being overtaken is to go faster out of and into the corners and along the straights. Part of the art of this is being on the bit of track that the other guy wants - ie, the inside line at the corner. Moving over on someone on the straight either while they're just pulling around you or often when they are already along side you is cheap and belongs only on the Playstation. Similarly squeezing someone in a corner by allowing them less than the width of their car is poor form and has resulted in lots of accidents. A good driver will keep another behind without either of them needing to use the grass.

In short, any fool can weave, a wise driver can remain in front without resorting to such tactics. If you disagree, watch bikes where the consequences of such actions are too severe, so they don't. And boy, can they race.

[QuickSilver]

Originally Posted by Woolley

I can't disagree more. The art of not being overtaken is to go faster out of and into the corners and along the straights. Part of the art of this is being on the bit of track that the other guy wants - ie, the inside line at the corner. Moving over on someone on the straight either while they're just pulling around you or often when they are already along side you is cheap and belongs only on the Playstation. Similarly squeezing someone in a corner by allowing them less than the width of their car is poor form and has resulted in lots of accidents. A good driver will keep another behind without either of them needing to use the grass.

In short, any fool can weave, a wise driver can remain in front without resorting to such tactics. If you disagree, watch bikes where the consequences of such actions are too severe, so they don't. And boy, can they race.

Woolley, while what you say is absolutely true, there's more to it. You must admit that there is such a thing as a defensive line. Slightly to the right side early in a righthander to reduce the chances of a dive up the inside and of course, the notorious "wide car". Experienced drivers know the defensive line and the wide car are both slower, but it also helps keep the guy behind you - especially if he has a faster car in corners.

And I couldn't agree with you more about the bikes. F1 is fun, but bikes are an absolute blast.
-

[Sodemo]

I think the departure of proper 'starts' has been to the detriment of the racing, often we would see a top runner say in the top 2 rows 'fluff' their start and be down in 8th place by the first corner, then we would see them fight back through to the front.

[Bluewolf]

I really disagree with the idea that blocking is part of the "Art of racing" -- if it is it shouldn't be -- This isn't speed racer or some other cartoon -- This is supposed to be the crown jewel of motorsport and it ends up so much of the time being processianal racing which is boring racing -- The IRL which has minor league budgets is three times more exciting than F1 and they black flag racers much more than F1 -- As soon as they see unstable racing lines that they deem to be blocking --> BANG! -- You're in for a stop and go -- F1 should follow suit - then we can see the fastest car/racer combination winning races instead of the best car/blocker combination.

[codename_47]

Originally Posted by Kicking-back

They have tough rules on blocking in ChampCar and there's not much overtaking in that either.

That's rubbish, I'd say there was at least double, possibly triple the amount of overtaking in Champcar compared to F1 this year.
That's not totally to do with the blocking rule though.

But it goes without saying, there is such little overtaking in F1 these days that why allow rules that make it harder for overtaking to happen when it looks like it could?

There is FAR FAR more to defending your position than just blocking you know....goodness I hate it when racers start edging their opponent into the wall, Alonso/Schuey Silverstone 2003 style, one of the most disgusting moves in F1 history.....at 190MPH!

[davyboy]

Nah its nothing to do with blocking. Look at FF1600 in the 1970s and 1980s, look at kart racing today. Ducking, diving and blocking are all part of racing battle. The reason overtaking can't happen is the aero profile of the cars and the configuration of some of the tracks.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by QuickSilver

Woolley, while what you say is absolutely true, there's more to it. You must admit that there is such a thing as a defensive line.

Absolutely. The clever bit is getting the bit of track the other guy wants before he goes for it. Anyone can watch where he's going and then move over, that's just crass, but anticipating the move and already being there is the real skill.

[Bluewolf]

I understand what you're saying Davey but I still see it differently. Can you think of any aero profile that has been developed by F1 tech's that will allow the car that is trying to pass, any chance for success if the car in front simply moves in front of the passer every time and in every direction the passer does? There needs to be very strict rules I believe requiring the car in front to basically hold his line and if the car behind makes a move to get by - you gotta let him go or your in for a stop and go. Result - a lot more passing - much more exciting racing - I would love to be able to see Kimi and Fernando passing each other time after time because lets say Kimi's car is faster down the straight and Fernando's car is quicker on the twisty bits - It can happen if they tweek the rules that way.

[davyboy]

In recent years there's been way too much emphasis on aero efficiency as a source of speed and adhesion. When a car doesn't get clean air, it can't perform optimally and as a consequence we've got cars that cannot run in close company. Ironically in years past, e.g. 1960s and early 1970s, when aero efficiency was poor, the following car could properly slipstream and gain enough advantage to slingshot by irrespective of whether the guy ahead attempted a block or not. If we dramatically reduced the aero reliance of the cars, by banning all winglets etc... and making all cars run with indy style front and rear wings the cars and eliminated carbon brakes... to increase braking distances, there would be more overtaking than there is now I'd guess.

[RaceFreak]

[QUOTE=davyboy]In recent years there's been way too much emphasis on aero efficiency as a source of speed and adhesion.

This is the key! Recent CFD advances have wrung the maximum out of the aero packages. In so doing they made the cars too dependant on smooth airflow (ie, 'boundary conditions'). Close racing results in far worse handling. Other series use less efficient cars which allow nose-to-tail racing at all speeds (albeit slower), and there is MUCH more passing. Look at MotoGP and A1GP : there's more passing in one race than in an entire season of "technically superior" F1.
Essentially all grip in MotoGP is mechanical, and while there is manufacturer/design diversity akin to F1, the racing is much closer on the same circuits.

[Paddockman]

[QUOTE=RaceFreak]

Originally Posted by davyboy

In recent years there's been way too much emphasis on aero efficiency as a source of speed and adhesion.

This is the key! Recent CFD advances have wrung the maximum out of the aero packages. In so doing they made the cars too dependant on smooth airflow (ie, 'boundary conditions'). Close racing results in far worse handling. Other series use less efficient cars which allow nose-to-tail racing at all speeds (albeit slower), and there is MUCH more passing. Look at MotoGP and A1GP : there's more passing in one race than in an entire season of "technically superior" F1.
Essentially all grip in MotoGP is mechanical, and while there is manufacturer/design diversity akin to F1, the racing is much closer on the same circuits.

Agree completely!!!!

[Louis B.]

Originally Posted by knowlesy

Blocking rules, one-move rules etc.... are to the detriment of overtaking.

I concur. Obviously, deliberate & unacceptable dangerous moves should be penalized but this cannot be cast into a blocking / one-move rule as it all depends upon the circumstances.

[WebberForWDC]

Originally Posted by Woolley

The art of not being overtaken is to go faster out of and into the corners and along the straights.

But you only really have to be faster out of the corner don't you reckon? As long as you plant your car in the middle of the road in braking, it doesn't matter how ordinary your mid-corner apex speed is the one in behind with bad aero is going to have lots of trouble in behind. Once you've stuffed up their mid-corner, then blast off into the distance out of the corner they are going to have a lot of trouble trying to overtake.

[davyboy]

... which all boils down to the over-riding dependency on aero !

[bauble]

The whole point of any type of motor racing is just that 'racing' ie for any given set of circumstances, circuit, weather,etc. the best man (car) should be ABLE to win.
Remember Mansell V Senna at Monaco, Schumacher V Alonso at Imola. Just two examples where justice was not done. The answer is that both cars and circuits should be designed to ALLOW overtaking. Get rid of Tilke and ground affects and let's get back to proper motor racing.

Dream on .... bauble!