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Old 28 Oct 2016, 10:22 (Ref:3683576)   #26
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Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice View Post
I don't understand the fascination with top speed - maybe it's the "Top Gear" affect, where supercars are judged on their top speed.

As a paying spectator, I'd much rather see cars delivering their performance around the bits I can see, rather than the bits I can't.

I watched the 1999 Le Mans review for the first time in years and years last week, and it wasn't anywhere near as good as I remember it, and it's because most of the cars look pretty slow around the corners in comparison to now - it almost looked like they were trying to park on the Mulsanne chicane.

Obviously, those fire-breathing monsters were spectacular at the time and I'd still pay a lot of money to see them in historics. But I'm not really sure how just because the GT cars of the 1990s were a bit faster for the last 10% of the Mulsanne straight, they were somehow better to watch.
100% agree with this. Watching even back to 2011 (Truth in 24 II), the lack of apparent urgency from the cars with the relatively slow acceleration really surprised me. Going back to the 2000s (especially 2005, with GT1s outdragging the Audi R8) and 90s really hurts. The current cars are just amazing.
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Old 28 Oct 2016, 11:41 (Ref:3683591)   #27
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That's bigger than I thought, I assumed it was closer to an hour. So let's take it a bit further and assume next year's LMP2 will be 5s/lap faster overall (another lazy assumption if nobody minds).

LMP2 2016 average lap - 4:02
LMP2 2017 average lap - 3:57

Which would have led to 364(.5) laps in this year's race, and a 70 minute gap to the winning car. So even if LMP1 isn't faster next year LMP2 will still be a long way behind, and the only overall podium chance would be for two factory cars to suffer major problems.
Ok, that is 70 minutes over 24 hours. But what would the gaps look like over a typical 6 hour race?
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Old 28 Oct 2016, 11:56 (Ref:3683592)   #28
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If some of you can actually remove the LM is amazing blinkers for a second and come back to a place where people just watch the cars, you will see what I have been saying for years and what the OP is saying.

The capabilities of these current cars is phenomenal, but it is not the same as the old Group C cars, they had a visceral punch, a very obvious change in sound and sight when they were really going for it.

It's exactly the same as comparing the old turbo F1 cars to the new ones, they are quick, efficient, amazingly capable, but they don't sound as good, don't look as pleasing on the eye. And for whatever reason though you know theya re, don't feel as quick! I think that's wrong with LMP1 cars, they are clearly quick, look quick, but visually they look awful, sound dreary and are just too good! No slides, no tail out, not much anyway.

Once you have seen these cars a few times, surely you can't still be astounded by it every time one goes by? It becomes the norm, it did the times I have been anyway.

I like to hear engine noise, not tyre roar and rumble strip noise which is all you can really hear watching an Audi LMP1 car.

These are selfish complaints, but ones with merit for people who don't know much about this type of racing, and ones which explains it's continual failure to achieve anything but mediocre tv and spectator audience figures.

There is no answer, but unless you are a devout fan who lives for one race a year, you are going to take it and leave it like most race fans do I'm afraid. Only one race matters, the rest is waiting!!
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Old 28 Oct 2016, 11:56 (Ref:3683593)   #29
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Ok, that is 70 minutes over 24 hours. But what would the gaps look like over a typical 6 hour race?
On the assumption of just dividing by 4, 17.5 minutes. So 15-20 minutes depending on the circuit over 6 hours.
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Old 28 Oct 2016, 12:09 (Ref:3683595)   #30
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Once you have seen these cars a few times, surely you can't still be astounded by it every time one goes by? It becomes the norm, it did the times I have been anyway.
I see what you're saying, but I disagree with this. Both from trackside and on TV, the acceleration and "punch" of the current LMP1s is mind blowing, and is mind blowing every. single. time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpzQhlenfAY

You only need to see the Audi acceleration at the end of this video to see it. Plus every onboard of a GT car where P1s come past, or the way the P1s were blowing by 5 cars at a time at Fuji. Or every time the Toyota pulls out of the pits. It is just incredible to watch and makes me laugh like a child every time.

I like to hear engines as well, and you're completely correct that it isn't as fun when everything is quiet. Fortunately, they aren't all quiet. I like the Audi noise because it's different. It wasn't as fun when Peugeot and Audi were quiet, but it's fun when one car is because it's different. The cars all have a distinct character, and we should appreciate the Audi quietness because it's different. If everybody had a V12 then it'd be spectacular for a while, but we'd miss the Corvettes and Ford GTs. It's all about the variety, and the quiet car is cool because of that.

I also think that if we're discussing noise, then it's actually GT that's suffering more with Ford and Ferrari going to turbos and losing the bit of edge from the sound.

I also feel it's a bit OTT to call the spectator figures mediocre. It's never going to be F1 level, but at the Nurburgring it basically was. The F1 and WEC figures were both around the 50-60k mark. I don't see anything wrong with that. And since we have Ford and BMW committing to WEC, Porsche looking to make a return and we've had 3 manufacturers (and only losing one to external issues), it appears as though the current figures satisfy enough for these projects to go ahead.

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There is no answer, but unless you are a devout fan who lives for one race a year, you are going to take it and leave it like most race fans do I'm afraid. Only one race matters, the rest is waiting!!
Couldn't disagree more. For me, this is the best sportscar racing has ever been. LMP1s are incredible pieces of engineering which are mind blowing to watch. LMP2 is showing quality we never seen in the 675 days. GT class is exploding. GT3 has blown up to a huge scale. I'm more into sportscar racing than I ever have been, and although not perfect, I believe this is the best it's ever been.

I adore Group C, but I feel the rose tints are too strong on this one, and detracting from the spectacle we have right now.
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Old 28 Oct 2016, 12:26 (Ref:3683601)   #31
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I think the high-tech march towards evaluating new methods of propulsion while using less fuel is right on. The 'relevance to roadcars' is very important, IMO, in today's world.

We've seen the use of and comparison of flywheels, capacitors and batteries and now all the teams end up with advanced batteries. There have been fires with these just like Boeing, Tesla and Samsung have had. But, the teams have, hopefully, figured out how to work with these to reduce their dangers while utilizing their impressive ability to store and deliver energy.

To me, this has been a historic period and I have thoroughly enjoyed watching the different approaches to solving the problems of efficiency and endurance while retaining speed. It's been a phenomenal experience.

Compare this to the US where we lost P1 and hybrid technology is non-existent. Instead, we get highly controlled pack racing for its 'entertainment value' rather than rolling testbeds of innovation.

Audi has set a goal of being the #1 supplier of electric vehicles in the U.S. but we only see cars representing this effort one time a year in the U.S.. I'm still hoping that Ford or GM will step up to the challenge of P1 with its advanced technology. Hoping but not holding my breath.
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Old 28 Oct 2016, 12:46 (Ref:3683606)   #32
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I don't know about either Ford or GM 'cause I think they're satisfied in GTE. Still, I wonder if hybrid technology is mature enough that off-the-shell parts can be used to reduce costs?

Anyways, I think ACO should come up with a contingency plan or LMP1 is doomed as we know it!
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Old 28 Oct 2016, 18:29 (Ref:3683680)   #33
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Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
On the assumption of just dividing by 4, 17.5 minutes. So 15-20 minutes depending on the circuit over 6 hours.
Thanks, i just did some checking and here is what the results say so far this year:

Silverstone
Rebellion 10 and 12 laps back
Best P2 15 laps back

Spa
Rebellion 4 and 5 laps back
Best P2 9 laps back

Nurburgring
Rebellion 16 laps back
Best P2 16 laps back

Mexico
Rebellion 12 laps back
Best P2 20 laps back

COTA
Rebellion 12 laps back
Best P2 14 laps back

Fuji
Rebellion 15 laps back
Best P2 21 laps back

I haven't converted that into times, but for the most part P1P still enjoyed an advantage over the P2's. A Faster p2 will close that gap for sure but might not be in the range of the P1P's.
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Old 28 Oct 2016, 18:42 (Ref:3683689)   #34
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At Fuji, the #6 winning Toyota covered 1113.7km over the 6 hours. The winning #26 G-Drive covered 1017.5km.

The average speed of the Toyota was 185.2kmh, the G-Drive was 169.2kmh.

So if the Toyota lost a half hour, it'd be out 92.75km. The total difference Toyota over G-Drive was 96.2km

So there would be 3.45km difference. Or a little bit less than 1 full lap of fuji, which is 4.5km!
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Old 28 Oct 2016, 19:57 (Ref:3683709)   #35
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It's not like this is rocket science.

Take a P2 tub, open up the aero rules, open up the engine rules for non-hybrids.. run the cars at 800kg. Make them fast enough to be equal to the hybrids on qualifying pace. It will give the illusion of being able to win, though chances are the privateers won't win much, but they will be much closer. Chassis costs should come in around $USD 750k for Privateer P1.
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Old 28 Oct 2016, 20:08 (Ref:3683710)   #36
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Racer.com has an article on the new Oreca 07, one thing stood out when thinking about your comment

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ORECA has revealed that the car is significantly below the 930kg (2,000-pound) minimum weight for the new P2 class and therefore carries substantial ballast.
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Old 28 Oct 2016, 20:38 (Ref:3683716)   #37
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Racer.com has an article on the new Oreca 07, one thing stood out when thinking about your comment
I called up someone I know with one of the approved P2 manufacturers about a week ago, asked them directly if what I suggested above could be done, and at what price. They said, no problem, and it would also mean if you had a P2, and wanted to upgrade, you could.
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Old 28 Oct 2016, 21:02 (Ref:3683720)   #38
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I figured they're at least 100-150kg under the minimum weight. 930kg is easily achievable. Nearly 10 years ago, p2's were 150kg lighter. Could you imagine what times they'd do if they were 780kg with >650hp?
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Old 28 Oct 2016, 21:41 (Ref:3683725)   #39
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Racer.com has an article on the new Oreca 07, one thing stood out when thinking about your comment
Just seen this in RCE's article on the JS P217 as well, Nicolet states that the car is seriously underweight and carries a lot of balance to make it up to the 930kg limit that was meant to allow DPis to cross over. Even at this weight, it's still 3-5 seconds quicker [than a JS P2] around Magny-Cours, let alone La Sarthe.
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Old 28 Oct 2016, 23:13 (Ref:3683738)   #40
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I wonder if the narrower cars will make them even faster at Le Mans compared to before?
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Old 28 Oct 2016, 23:15 (Ref:3683739)   #41
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Take a P2 tub, open up the aero rules, open up the engine rules for non-hybrids.. run the cars at 800kg.
But, that's what P1L already is, except for the weight limit only going to 830kg next year because nobody can get a P2 based car to 800kg.

As far as the old LMP2, well, this requires a few statements actually:

2004: 750kg
2005: 750kg
2006: 750kg
2007: 750kg/775kg ALMS
2008: 825kg/800kg ALMS
2009: 850kg/825kg ALMS
2010: 850kg

The only car I know of to even make 775kg was the RS Spyder, which probably has some bearing on how much less dominant it was in 2008 on. The Acura debuted at 815kg and most of the cars were hovering in the high 700s. Given that the current prototypes are inherently heavier because of the closed cockpits, larger engines, and additional safety changes, and that the current LMP2 cars are built to a cost cap it would be very difficult for them to match that.

But LMP1L as of next season has the same dimensions and crash tests as LMP2 and has been guaranteed to continue to allow that spec when LMP1H changes in a couple years, can run any engine layout with no displacement limit, is allowed a front wing, wider diveplanes and a more efficient rear wing compared to LMP2 (2/3 of those compared to LMP1H as well), and will weigh as little as they practically can. The only place that might be really lacking is the fuel flow limit could stand to be higher perhaps, but that raises the question of whether they can carry a large enough fuel tank to make that work anyways.
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Old 29 Oct 2016, 03:50 (Ref:3683764)   #42
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The chassis today should be more advanced than those lightweight p2's. Plus they're smaller. Not sure what their Gibson V8 weighs,but I would like to think they can get that low. Remember Rebellion saying they can go as low as 780(?)kg with the R-one.
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Old 29 Oct 2016, 04:32 (Ref:3683768)   #43
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http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/c...-new-lmp2-car/

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“The BR01 is the first real new LMP2 car,” Catone said. “From the beginning, the project was focused on LMP2. Today we’re at 900 kg. We can’t go to LMP1-L with the same car as that should be 800 kg.

“We could redo the monocoque with zylon to save 20 or 30 kg but this is an investment in itself. I asked the customer at the beginning of the project. If we had to do both, it would be very expensive and not necessarily optimized for the other.
There's no reason for the tub to be more advanced in terms of weight savings when it's cost ineffective to do so for a 930kg cost cap customer car (for the most part the tub is good weight anyways, it's central and fairly low).

ORECA is an adapted P1 car, I actually believe that looking at the changes from the 05 to the 07. Where that goes depends on Rebellion though.
Ligier was started as a P1 project but the car was properly redesigned for LMP2 so it's no guarantee they didn't change the tub materials to lower the cost. The 2017 car has a new tub though, which you can take a couple ways I guess.
Dome also started as a P1 and this being Dome I'll believe it's probably been made to P1 spec. That one depends on Strakka, obviously.
ByLodess is definitely struggling just to reach 830kg.
ARX-04 was in theory meant for both classes but it debuted well overweight in LMP2. That's been fixed but getting it down to 800kg might be wishful thinking.

No reason to believe the Dallara or Multimatic Riley will be designed with anything but 930kg in mind.
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Old 29 Oct 2016, 08:23 (Ref:3683783)   #44
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The chassis today should be more advanced than those lightweight p2's. Plus they're smaller. Not sure what their Gibson V8 weighs,but I would like to think they can get that low. Remember Rebellion saying they can go as low as 780(?)kg with the R-one.
140kg.

You're welcome!
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Old 29 Oct 2016, 08:25 (Ref:3683785)   #45
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140kg.

You're welcome!
Cool. A bit heavier than the Nissan unit?
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Old 29 Oct 2016, 09:31 (Ref:3683794)   #46
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If we're focused on top speed then sure, they aren't that fast. If we look at acceleration and speed differences, it's absolutely phenomenal. I absolutely love the current P1 cars. They are just too expensive. If we can now stop pushing for less fuel and just freeze it and try and get the costs down, it'd be brilliant to keep the hybrids. They're so exciting and amazing to watch, especially in traffic.

They are neutered sportscars. Compared to the goose with the golden eggs, F1, that are granted seriously powerful turbo engines, current P1's are silly, with their fuel flow restrictors and all.
Them speed differences you say? These are easy to achieve when the FIA and ACO only allow tier 3 GT cars to compete. This story would be alltogether different if them LMP1's had to take it up against the likes of the best GT's the customer can buy, nowadays.
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Old 29 Oct 2016, 09:35 (Ref:3683795)   #47
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Remember that the tub is not the only thing that will be a bit heavier for P2. The bodywork, suspension, radiators, wheels etc. can all weigh a little bit more or be made from different materials that are lower cost but slightly heavier.
If I was building a P2, I would like to design it with P1 in mind but allow other parts to be a little heavier that would save on cost.
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Old 29 Oct 2016, 09:58 (Ref:3683798)   #48
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Since the Gibson V8 is a purpose built racing engine and the Nissan is a (albeit heavily modified) stock block engine, I'd assume that the Gibson would have the edge on weight. However, the Nissan is an old Super GT GT500 engine and is about as heavily modified as a stock block engine can get while still being a stock block engine. Also, the Gibson V8 is a spec engine and is probably built leaning towards durability vs outright power. But I can't see it being much heavier, if at all, than their 4.5 LMP1 V8.

EDIT: The 4.2 V8 seems to be quite a bit heavier than their old 4.5 V8. Gibson claims that the 4.5 weighed about 120kg. The 4.2 is about 20kg heavier. That also makes me think that the LMP2 engine is a different design than the other Gibson/Zytek V8s, which are closely related to each other. Also, the Gibson/Nissan VK45 weights 150kg per their website.

Last edited by chernaudi; 29 Oct 2016 at 10:03.
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Old 29 Oct 2016, 10:28 (Ref:3683800)   #49
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It's funny to see how many of you are blinded by the fact that the FIA, their inside friends at the ACO and fossil fuel hating greenies have reduced the so called top of sportscars to wheezy whisperers that could do so much better if, like in F1, the combustion engines were to be allowed serious outputs.
These cars should represent what is ultimately possible with current technology. What we now see are cars that are dialed down far too much, just to let F1 shine. The FIA has done it again. Sad to see so many be lulled into thinking this is all so very spectacular. Also sad to see that the worldwide campaign of making people think fossil fuels are nearly gone and that electrically powered cars are the way to go, is catching on too well for something so poorly not based in reality .
Fossil fuels are here to stay for at least a few centuries more and electrical propulsion is never gonna take over the many millions of FF engines we humans employ in our daily lives. People(willingly) keep forgetting the nagging facts that for electrical propulsion to take over completely, we would need amounts of exotic materials that are simply not there. Think of copper, Lithium, Neodymium, all far from being in abundance on our planet but all crucial for any modern electrical power unit. .

Sorry lads, as long as the cars on my beloved track are basically policor sign boards for a world that's being shoved down our throats as ' the future' while reality is something completely different, I will keep on not being impressed by the sight of them ugly and sterile contraptions.

Still the party is allways good at Le Mans, many friends will be there and the atmosphere will be warm and friendly, so I'll keep coming but if I want see some seriously fast machinery, I'll go to F1.
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Old 29 Oct 2016, 11:26 (Ref:3683807)   #50
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Originally Posted by TF110 View Post
Cool. A bit heavier than the Nissan unit?
Apparently not. Although I'm finding lots of different figures for the VK45DE's weight, they are all slightly above the reported 140kg that the Gibson 4.0L V8 should be. Because Gibson are familiar with the VK block, they probably aimed for it's weight while targeting substantially more power.
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