[Team] Williams: Do they have a spare tub?

[bella]

yup - it also doesn’t mean that people have the right to act like muppets in someone elses house.

and that’s said with my moderator hat on. would rather people debate without name calling and with appreciation of others. i for one can’t be arsed to start issuing warnings because people can’t discuss stuff without bickering.

[BertMk2]

I don't understand the logic behind selling WAE - presumably that was for a short term cash boost rather than taking a drip feed of income over a longer term? It seems very short sighted (especially given the subsequent "restructure"), presumably the money from that sale has already gone.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

I don't understand the logic behind selling WAE - presumably that was for a short term cash boost rather than taking a drip feed of income over a longer term? It seems very short sighted (especially given the subsequent "restructure"), presumably the money from that sale has already gone.

When shareholders are busily raising cash it’s usually for one, or both, of two reasons. Namely to exit the company, and/or to try to stave off short-term cash flow disaster.

Doubtless the usual bedroom keyboard warriors will be along soon to give the contrary benefit of their ‘experience!’ Lol.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

I don't understand the logic behind selling WAE - presumably that was for a short term cash boost rather than taking a drip feed of income over a longer term? It seems very short sighted (especially given the subsequent "restructure"), presumably the money from that sale has already gone.

I wonder if there is some thought of cashing in now (need the money) and rebuilding (not saying that is easy) a version of it again in the future (IF they survive long enough to do that).

Originally Posted by peebee2

When shareholders are busily raising cash it’s usually for one, or both, of two reasons. Namely to exit the company, and/or to try to stave off short-term cash flow disaster.

Broadly agree it is one of those in this situation. There are other reasons to raise cash of course.

Originally Posted by peebee2

Doubtless the usual bedroom keyboard warriors will be along soon to give the contrary benefit of their ‘experience!’ Lol.

Gotta love that snark. Post your opinion and at the same time try to torpedo the future opinion of others. Are you not one of those keyboard warriors. Ever consider that others might have different (and valid) experiences that differ from yours?

Richard

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

I don't understand the logic behind selling WAE - presumably that was for a short term cash boost rather than taking a drip feed of income over a longer term? It seems very short sighted (especially given the subsequent "restructure"), presumably the money from that sale has already gone.

No one puts all their remaining assets including their factory, F1 entry and heritage on the line as security if things are going well!

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

No one puts all their remaining assets including their factory, F1 entry and heritage on the line as security if things are going well!

Exactly. This has to be act of desperation. For me, we have been talking for months about the dire straits that Williams is in. But at some level I wonder if we all just can't imagine Williams going under. Maybe the name will exist under non-family ownership sort of like McLaren. If things come to an end for "Williams as we know it today" I will be both shocked and not shocked.

I still hope they pull this out. I think they were just hoping to survive until the new regulations and cap system came into place and then hope that changed the rules of the game enough for them to claw their way forward. Like you continue to bet your last few bucks on a questionable hand and you win, but just enough to remain in the game to keep playing. Then the pandemic hits and knocked everyone's plans for a loop. Hitting the weakest the hardest as they are operating on no or limited reserves.

Richard

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Exactly. This has to be act of desperation. For me, we have been talking for months about the dire straits that Williams is in. But at some level I wonder if we all just can't imagine Williams going under. Maybe the name will exist under non-family ownership sort of like McLaren. If things come to an end for "Williams as we know it today" I will be both shocked and not shocked.

I still hope they pull this out. I think they were just hoping to survive until the new regulations and cap system came into place and then hope that changed the rules of the game enough for them to claw their way forward. Like you continue to bet your last few bucks on a questionable hand and you win, but just enough to remain in the game to keep playing. Then the pandemic hits and knocked everyone's plans for a loop. Hitting the weakest the hardest as they are operating on no or limited reserves.

Richard

The Latifi family in pole now, not only do they have the assets secured, aside from Rockit, they are (or are connected to) most of the other brands on the car. If Williams fall out with them like they did with the Strolls, this time it will be worse as not only do they lose the income, they will also lose the assets if the loan is called in. They do rather have form for this though as they have managed to fall out with 2 x billionaire backers in 3 years....

I hope this doesn't happen as I have been a Williams admire since the Keke days, but the irony would be that by being stubbornly independent and not selling up when times were good, they could (in the worse case scenario) see the team effectively removed from under them.

Another thing to add in the mix, is that they are probably the most reliant on FOM income.

a) I can't see the heritage income applied to Williams just for being there so long carrying on in the new concorde agreement

b) Some of the big TV deals expire this year I believe and the big SKY deal expires in 2024 - so FOM's income could be impacted unless they can get their on TV thing running property and if they do that will directly impact on the mood of broadcasters to part with large or any money in the future

c)Who knows what the FOM prize fund will be next year after this years debacle - there has been talk of FOM/Liberty allegedly having to increase borrowings to fund some prize fund if need be

d) what sort of shape will FOM sponsors be in to contribute to the above?

None of this is good news for a team like Williams, particularly when you have just taken on £50m (allegedly) of debt.

Sorry to go back to the money again...

[midgetman]

Income from Liberty arrives a year in arrears doesn't it? So they've got last year's cash coming in ATM, and expenses must be miniscule at the moment compared to running a racing car all over the world. But next year they'll have to fund all their globetrotting with no or seriously reduced Liberty dollars.

Scary times for any company without reserves.

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[mark_l]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Income from Liberty arrives a year in arrears doesn't it? So they've got last year's cash coming in ATM, and expenses must be miniscule at the moment compared to running a racing car all over the world. But next year they'll have to fund all their globetrotting with no or seriously reduced Liberty dollars.

Scary times for any company without reserves.

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Who says Liberty Media will be around next year to make payments if rumours are to be believed.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by mark_l

Who says Liberty Media will be around next year to make payments if rumours are to be believed.

Liberty Media will be, whether they choice to fund F1 fully, find outs in the contracts for payouts or dump F1 rights in the question. It was, and still is, an unsustainable model and the only thing that got rich was the squirrelly little man who made it so.

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Liberty Media will be, whether they choice to fund F1 fully, find outs in the contracts for payouts or dump F1 rights in the question. It was, and still is, an unsustainable model and the only thing that got rich was the squirrelly little man who made it so.

BE and CVC had the golden era of F1 for making money, it is all hard slog from here on in. Chase Carey himself admitted that the queue of sponsors they expected to attarct when they took over wasn't as long or willing as they imagined, most of the ones they have now date back to BE's day.

Sure, at the 'moment' F1 has a good revenue stream, but the TV contracts are coming to an end over the next few years, as I imagine are sponsor agreements and the promoters will want to talk to FOM about the future as well.



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[chillibowl]

and not just FOM..with the number of fashion/luxury brands looking at collapse post covid, one wonders how much extra cash they will have for sponsorship deals and particularity for advertising opportunities that are hidden behind a paywall?

i think all the teams will suffer with sponsors pulling back as the allure that luxury brands once associated with the exclusivity of F1 will no doubt have to be reexamined.

again just a guess on my part, but as every brand tries to reestablish themselves post virus, advertising/sponsorship money will have to go wherever gets the most eyeballs and that is, all things being equal, no longer a specialty F1 channel.

that philosophy may be fundamentally opposed to Liberty's model as they are very much focused on acquiring content to put behind the paywalls that they control.

for sure the longer the lockdown goes the worse this effect will be or maybe they will find something even more creative like putting live sports on Netflix.

from a business point of view, everything is just so messed up now!!!

[Casper]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Liberty Media will be, whether they choice to fund F1 fully, find outs in the contracts for payouts or dump F1 rights in the question. It was, and still is, an unsustainable model and the only thing that got rich was the squirrelly little man who made it so.

A lot of people still do not understand why Liberty bought F1, it was because the world media is scrambling around for sports content to stream and they can see that conventional sit down and watch TV is dying. It could have been any sport but F1 had one big advantage for them and that was Bernie had forcibly put a cap on the F1 presence in the video media so it was a product that could be exploited easily and in that respect it was unique. Look at cricket and other sports, they have done the same thing and got into video streaming and pay TV for exactly the reason that Liberty bought F1. It is always about the money, people are simply greedy and are never satisfied. Liberty could not give two damns about F1 if a better prospect for their purpose had been around.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Casper

A lot of people still do not understand why Liberty bought F1, it was because the world media is scrambling around for sports content to stream and they can see that conventional sit down and watch TV is dying. It could have been any sport but F1 had one big advantage for them and that was Bernie had forcibly put a cap on the F1 presence in the video media so it was a product that could be exploited easily and in that respect it was unique. Look at cricket and other sports, they have done the same thing and got into video streaming and pay TV for exactly the reason that Liberty bought F1. It is always about the money, people are simply greedy and are never satisfied. Liberty could not give two damns about F1 if a better prospect for their purpose had been around.

I don't think it's about streaming per se but about exploiting pay TV and selling the content to those broadcasters, who are willing to pay for that content and in turn charge their viewers, for the privilege of watching it whatever sport it is, as long as it has a high profile and commands a lot of money. Streaming is just another way of accessing that content, as so many people own computers and mobile phones.

[peebee2]

It’s exactly the same as football. The longer term goal is streaming direct from the rights-holders to the global public, thus cutting out broadcasters entirely.

The broadcasters have to find ways to keep paying handsomely otherwise they lose their entire business model.

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by peebee2

It’s exactly the same as football. The longer term goal is streaming direct from the rights-holders to the global public, thus cutting out broadcasters entirely.

The broadcasters have to find ways to keep paying handsomely otherwise they lose their entire business model.

This is what Liberty aim to achieve with their F1TV that they have not managed to get working sufficiently yet. The problem I think F1 has though is that football generally has very passionate, engaged fans that build new fans - e.g. your dad supports X and takes you along to games, so you become a fan and so on. It is also more accessible, you may support your local club and be easily able to go to matches.

The problem F1 has is that buried behind paywall TV it' viewership is already falling away and without free to air TV you have no way of picking up new fans that might stumble across F1. By going direct stream, you also risk cutting your paywall TV deals income - is Sky going to pay mega bucks when the rightsholder is competing with them for viewers and subscribers?

You also have to absorb all the risk - take the current situation, Sky has suspended Sports package subscribtions becuase there is no live sport, yet FOM has still banked their money from Sky. Imagine if FOM was direct F1TV stream to the viewer only as a subscriber, they would have no TV money in the bank and no live stream income and probably very few sponsors due the the coverage. FOM could also not afford to do what is proposed now and pay circuits to hold races behind closed doors.

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[peebee2]

Medium term the hope has been that the threat of direct streaming keeps the media companies paying top dollar in order not to lose it.

The current situation is not going to help that.

A challenge of F1 is that it is an incredibly wealthy business with little wealth reserves. That short term thinking is going to come home to roost now.

The whole idea of spending what you earn that was abandoned in favour of spending now what you think you will earn in the future is going to damage many, many industries.

[P38 in workshop]

We seem to be drifting away from the topic of Williams a bit.Can we agree that they may have had a plan,maybe several different plans have evolved over the time this thread has been running?As is the plan will have to take into account a cost cap that hasn't been agreed,a technical rule change that has been delayed,an absence of racing so far this years and a Concorde agreement that is about to expire.


Given that the series rights holder isn't receiving much income from the non-running of events,they have a challenge to service the debt agreements that are in place and the lack of a Concorde agreement puts them in a difficult position for re-financing as there is no guaranteed income stream.One thing we can be sure of is that Williams will be around for as long as they are able to go racing-its what they exist to do.The same can't be said of some of the others.

[S griffin]

Claire Williams saying F1 needs to go ahead if her team is to survive. Let's hope for the team's sake we get some sort of racing going, so we don't end up losing a team at this time. We need more not less

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

One thing we can be sure of is that Williams will be around for as long as they are able to go racing-its what they exist to do.

If that was the case, sadly, they would never have pursued the public listing and subsequent external investors.

[S griffin]

You could Williams need to go racing has made them more eager to chase financial help

[bathurst77]

Here we are, almost May, getting close to the half way point of the season, and Williams on equal first. Did anybody put money on this?

Also equal last, but thats not so surprising

[Casper]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Claire Williams saying F1 needs to go ahead if her team is to survive. Let's hope for the team's sake we get some sort of racing going, so we don't end up losing a team at this time. We need more not less

A graph of the time Claire took over her role and the declining performance of Williams is very telling in that they both coincide. She took over her position in 2013, Williams did reasonably well in 2014 and slid down from there on.

[S griffin]

I don't think you can solely blame her. There's a combination of things gone against Williams. I think she has done well to keep it going in all honesty

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I think she has done well to keep it going in all honesty

She has been a total disaster in every way. Bad decision after bad decision after indecision after bad decision!