Falling or thriving grids?

[JimW]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

On the subject of short oval stuff, why did they never hold a meeting at Rockingham, I would have thought it would have been mega not bangers of course but the faster non-contact stuff. Can I hazard a guess that the MSA may have been the sticking point!

Al

They have held a meeting at Rockingham. 10th September. Joint meeting SCSA cars with several Short circuit Oval races. I heard good things about the day from people who went.

Regards

Jim

[Alfatim]

Would TV coverage encourage you into any particular series?

It would for me (within reason).

Would you be prepared to contribute towards TV coverage?

I know how sensitive cost is and how sympathetic and hard working co-ordinaters usually are, but if Telly coverage would encourage more into a championship, could it actually have a reverse effect on the cost for competetitors?

It 'could' encourage a full entry which (if you buy your own grids) cost saving could be spread.

[greenamex2]

Originally Posted by Alfatim

Would TV coverage encourage you into any particular series?

It would for me (within reason).

Would you be prepared to contribute towards TV coverage?

I know how sensitive cost is and how sympathetic and hard working co-ordinaters usually are, but if Telly coverage would encourage more into a championship, could it actually have a reverse effect on the cost for competetitors?

It 'could' encourage a full entry which (if you buy your own grids) cost saving could be spread.

No.

[COLIN STUBBS]

ditto

[Al Weyman]

TV coverage? I hope it would be better than the dross i watched on motors TV the other night coverage of the Great & British, whole show without a commentry! I mean why did they not just record the circuit commentator if they couldnt afford their own.

[andy97]

I can't believe that it won't add SIGNIFICANTLY to the costs. Grass roots motorsport does not warrant it.

[Alfatim]

Cost would of course be crucial.

Some championships are hoping to half tyre costs next year and look at buying grids to reduce costs, one problem is that over the past 5 years or so grids have fallen and whilst cost is an obvious issue, and the draw of newer challenge's, we want to encourage new drivers in.

Presuming the 'cost' to the compete doesnt increase, would a driver prefer to be on the telly in turn for a contribution (£35ish per race) the rest being subsidised by sponsorship?

[johnw]

Just quickly read through this thread, so apologies if I've missed the point.

A couple of questions were asked about costs.
The circuit owners wanted min £10k in order to relinquish the gate, last time I asked.
Circuit hire charges are commensurate with the cost of circuit ownership. I believe that the council tax bill alone for Brands is close to £1m per year. The owners, whilst enthusiasts, are in business not charity work. I imagine that if less philanthropic owners had secured the MSV cicuits, they would all be housing estates by now.

The cost of entries could easily be reduced if all races had full (or near to full) grids. I don't see the the MSA doing anything to achieve this. It is really down to those of us paying entry fees and wanting them lower, to organise ourselves into series and championships where we can rely on full grids. Much like the guys in the Track and Race series have done.

Spectators at motorsport events are IMO a thing of the past. There are too many other opportunities for people over a weekend. Sunday trading probably accounted for most folks who used to watch a bit of motor racing. It's hard to see how a chap could drag his family along to a wet and windy race circuit, to stand in the rain and watch 10-15 cars (in many cases) run in procession.

I doubt that we will ever see enough spectators returning to make any impact on entry fees. To get any back, we need to be creative and put on more of a show. Endurance racing appeals to drivers but not anyone else.
Sprint races are more appealing, but not if the result is a foregone conclusion.

What makes the driver who is forever at the tail of the field keep coming back? I am a fan of handicap races as, if done properly, can produce winners from the otherwise slowest competitors, provide much overtaking, excitement, and be enjoyable to compete in. If anyone here did the old 8 Clubs meetings final race of the day, you'll know exactly what I mean.

TV? I don't think so. Very expensive to put on and unless done in the same way as the professional stuff, extremely naff.

[JimW]

Originally Posted by johnw

Just quickly read through this thread, so apologies if I've missed the point.

A couple of questions were asked about costs.
The circuit owners wanted min £10k in order to relinquish the gate, last time I asked. Circuit hire charges are commensurate with the cost of circuit ownership. I believe that the council tax bill alone for Brands is close to £1m per year. The owners, whilst enthusiasts, are in business not charity work. I imagine that if less philanthropic owners had secured the MSV cicuits, they would all be housing estates by now.

Absolutely right. This is a business in which we all have to play a part, including recognising that it is a business.

The cost of entries could easily be reduced if all races had full (or near to full) grids. I don't see the the MSA doing anything to achieve this. It is really down to those of us paying entry fees and wanting them lower, to organise ourselves into series and championships where we can rely on full grids. Much like the guys in the Track and Race series have done..

Right again and this links to the way to increase (or not decrease further) the numbers of spectators.

Spectators at motorsport events are IMO a thing of the past. There are too many other opportunities for people over a weekend. Sunday trading probably accounted for most folks who used to watch a bit of motor racing. It's hard to see how a chap could drag his family along to a wet and windy race circuit, to stand in the rain and watch 10-15 cars (in many cases) run in procession.

I doubt that we will ever see enough spectators returning to make any impact on entry fees. To get any back, we need to be creative and put on more of a show. .

And that starts with a programme which caters to a proper start and end time. "I've paid for the whole programme and don't want to leave before the end but this is going on too long. I've got the pub to go to or shopping to do or want to be home with my family. If I leave before the end I feel cheated and am missing out."

Endurance racing appeals to drivers but not anyone else.
Sprint races are more appealing, but not if the result is a foregone conclusion..

What makes the driver who is forever at the tail of the field keep coming back? I am a fan of handicap races as, if done properly, can produce winners from the otherwise slowest competitors, provide much overtaking, excitement, and be enjoyable to compete in. If anyone here did the old 8 Clubs meetings final race of the day, you'll know exactly what I mean..

Hmm. Handicap (and long distance) are not my kettle of fish but they are much improved by really good commentating and a PA which can be heard plus circuit radio. Screaming commentators describing a side-by-side battle which simply does not exist, are not what we need. Titchmarsh, Pye and Addison all do a great job. (And others too, I am sure .)

TV? I don't think so. Very expensive to put on and unless done in the same way as the professional stuff, extremely naff.

I don't have TV so only see it very rarely. Just sometimes it can make a boring race interesting because the boring bits can be dropped. (F1 anybody? )

Regards

Jim

[johnw]

Originally Posted by JimW

Hmm. Handicap (and long distance) are not my kettle of fish but they are much improved by really good commentating and a PA which can be heard plus circuit radio. Screaming commentators describing a side-by-side battle which simply does not exist, are not what we need. Titchmarsh, Pye and Addison all do a great job. (And others too, I am sure .)

Agree about needing informed commentary Jim. I was going to make that point, but felt that I was banging on too long
There are so few handicap races in the UK these days that we would have a responsibility to assist the commentators in understanding what was happening on track.

Would also need drivers who understood that once caught, their handicap had been eroded, and blocking was therefore not an option.

[Al Weyman]

Yes and hands up how many of you dont bother to ever fill the commentry sheet in! We also used to try to get a non participating club member (me sometimes) to go up into the box and help out, its all about entertainment, how boring is that Motors TV Great & British coverage with no commentry, I turned off after five minutes, I was even waiting for some silly 60's background music to pipe up!

[andy97]

Sorry but an extra £35 (ish) on top of an entry fee of £165 (ish) -ie another 21% is too much for me at my level. Perhaps series like the Porsche Club Series - ie a series where there may be some marque interest - could justify it but not me.

In any case I am not sure who would watch, apart from ourselves and or friends and family - just like the curent spectators at the race track. I am a 17 handicap golfer and (probably) a "28 handicap" racing driver - I don't expect anyone to watch me play golf and I certainly don't expect anyone to watch me race!

[greenamex2]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Yes and hands up how many of you dont bother to ever fill the commentry sheet in!

I do. About all I put on the sheet is the series web site though, and the fact I can't drive in the wet.

A couple of our guys have a competition on who can put the most rubbish on the sheet. Childish but occassionaly amusing.

[Al Weyman]

Sorry Dennis it is childish, how can you expect the commentator to help you guys if thats the attitide, I have always and will always fill mime in.

[Ian Sowman]

Speaking as a commentator, it is amazing how many racing drivers are also in the porn industry, if their commentary sheets are to be believed.

Ones that are well filled in are a godsend. Background on the car, the driver, and perhaps how the car gets round the circuit are all useful and interesting.

A good championship website is a big help. One series I was commentating on recently had quite a good site... lots of background and championship history. Up to date race results and reports. But no sign of the latest championship positions, probably the single most important piece of information you could want!

[Al Weyman]

Well if you are on duty next weekend at Donington Ian make sure you have a good look at the Classic Touring Car Racing Club's site because its currently all upto date and very good. Oh and I am filling in my form tonight:-)

[Ian Sowman]

Sadly I am not, but if I get another chance to do CTCRC I will take a look.

[Speedy5]

Can anyone confirm why the circuits want at least £10k to relinquish their rights to the gate money? That seems a ludicrous stance to take by the circuits, as the vast majority of clubs meets can't bring in anywhere near that, can they? That's 1000 people at £10 a shot, and at the 750MC meetings I've been to, they're lucky to get 100 people in!
Surely the circuits realise this, so why can't some deal be done. Like relinquishing the rights for £1k instead which might entice the organising club to promote it. Or how about the circuit relinquishing the rights to the gate money for free, on condition that the gate money raised is split 50/50 between club and circuit (or some other viable split).
Hey Mr Palmer (and other owners), surely something can be worked out?
Remember, more spectators = reduced entry fees = more competitors = more sponsorship (due to more spectators) = more money for Mr Palmer etc. Everybody wins?

[Al Weyman]

Shame that Ian I would have looked forward to meeting you.

Why indeed £10,000 does sound a lot especially after reading JP's article in Motorsport this week where he recons it costs £3 a person catering for spectators. Maybe thats the problem if they religuish the gate for nothing who picks up the tab for catering for the spectators (I dont mean catering as in food but toilets, clearing up, attendants and staff etc).

[dikko]

To give you an idea on TV coverage. I helped with THE FORCE (Historic F1/2/5000) series a while back and heard that a film company would gladly record the series for TV. The charge would be £50,000. This was about 3 years ago. I would imagine any series would be about this price, you would have to take a deep breath to commit to that sort of figure to make a series popular.
Might racing be cheaper if we did it on a Wednesday????!!!

[Al Weyman]

It probable would apart from those of us who would have to close our businesses and loose several entry fees in the process.

[greenamex2]

Originally Posted by dikko

To give you an idea on TV coverage. I helped with THE FORCE (Historic F1/2/5000) series a while back and heard that a film company would gladly record the series for TV. The charge would be £50,000. This was about 3 years ago. I would imagine any series would be about this price, you would have to take a deep breath to commit to that sort of figure to make a series popular.

And that doesn't include the amount you have to pay the circuit to have the camera's there.

I think the £50,000 is a bit over the top. The cheaper (but less 'professional') companies are asking somewhere around £10,000. If you could spread the cost between a number of the series then that probably wouldn't be too bad.

You couldn't probably ever cost justify it though given that that for that money the footage will be shown on some non-entity Sky/cable channel at an unpopular time slot.

[johnw]

Originally Posted by Speedy5

Can anyone confirm why the circuits want at least £10k to relinquish their rights to the gate money?

I can't confirm why that particular figure, my conversation centred around looking for a price that would entice the racers to buy the gate and promote their own meetings.
If we take £3000 as the base cost of allowing people through the gate and guessing that the owners would like to make a profit, it would need to be at least £6000 I guess. Don't think that I'd want to take the risk of paying for promotion to get that back at say 1200 people at a fiver a head.

They obviously would like to see the potential extra profit from spectators, but my feeling was that, they too didn't have much expectation of a resurgence of people flooding through the gates for clubbies - promoted meetings or not.

If we want lower entry fees in the short term, we need to supply full grids at each meeting.

[archaic gold]

Gate money is really a hot-potato! The Circuit Owners have to pay staff to collect for Admission, and some of this entrance costs go there, but if you hand this income over to the Organising Club, the Circuit will still need Staff on the Gates - who pays them? Many passes, queries, etc, come from members of the public relating to any event being held, and only permanent gate staff can deal with this.
Can you deny that JP has ploghed back a large amount of Income back into Circuit improvements at ALL four Race Circuits?

[Alfatim]

""I think the £50,000 is a bit over the top. The cheaper (but less 'professional') companies are asking somewhere around £10,000. If you could spread the cost between a number of the series then that probably wouldn't be too bad.""


AMGTV who cover Ford XR, NW ff etc quoted circa £3,000 for 4 trackside camera's and 4 incar. It goes out on Motors tv and so far everything they film actually goes out.

Not BBC primetime stuff but then its not £10-5ok and you get on the telly