Unfulfilled talents - those who never achieved potential?

[Mackmot]

I wondered how far James Matthews would have got after his fantastic season of Formula Renault if he hadnt run out of money in F3. I know that his form was partly to do with his engine being the best but he did beat some really good drivers. In fact the front runners of the Renault field in 94 should have gone far. Gonzalo Rodriguez, Tomas Erdos, Rui Aguas and James Matthews

[Mackmot]

Also what about the 96 Formula Vauxhall Junior front runners. Tim Mullen won it but Luciano Burti went the furthest. Also Andrew Kirkaldy, Craig Murray they were both really good. Who else was in that year, I remember it being very competative because Andrew only finished 5th yet won 4 races (I was his lucky mascot, he only won when I polished his car )

[BSchneiderFan]

Originally posted by wblh
Theres also a little bald guy whose name escapes me but he`s been running around in champcars off and on for the last couple of years and he sure was something in F5000 back in the early 80`s

You obviously mean Roberto Moreno. Hit the F1 big time with Benetton in 1991, until he was tipped out of his seat in favour of a pesky German youngster...

But he remains one of the happiest guys I've ever seen win a race.

[wblh]

Yes Moreno that`s the guy.I`ve seen a few up close in the early days of the NZ Tasman series. Amon,Rosberg,Clark,Rindt, are a
few of the more famous, but I really did think Moreno would go all the way

[BSchneiderFan]

One wonders how he'd have gone at Benetton in 1991/92; they were certainly a team on the up (though how much of their rise was due to Herr Schumacher..?), and were capable of winning GPs. Was Moreno? Hard to say.

[Pete Fenelon]

Originally posted by BSchneiderFan
You obviously mean Roberto Moreno. Hit the F1 big time with Benetton in 1991, until he was tipped out of his seat in favour of a pesky German youngster...

But he remains one of the happiest guys I've ever seen win a race.

Splendid bloke too - met him a couple of times over the Miami CART weekend last year and he really is a gentleman - and one who loves the sport.

[chunterer]

Defo a driver alright, you only have to look at his later F3000 years, when he finally got the equipment and budgets to get a decent job done to see that. He shone on occassion in the Benetton and then has put in some cracking champ car drives over last few years

[chunterer]

Mackmot,

Interesting points about Matthews.

He's one of those rare drivers who admits when he's reached his peak or limit. I spoke to him at Brands a few years ago, when he was hanging around a few Renault Spider teams and asked him if he was looking for a drive ('98 i think).

He said he didn't miss racing that much and was working in a 'normal job' and realised that when he was in F3 he wasn't gonna make it....i was pretty gobsmacked because i also thought he was a major emerging talent! It was refreshing to have a discussion about his views though.

[Don K]

Originally Posted by Tony F.P.

One thing is Certain Villeneuve Took the Williams CURSE with Him. Not one Driver ever Won an F1 Championship after leaving Williams.

Nigel Mansell left Williams after the 1988 season. And he won an F1 championship in 1992.

[John Turner]

Literally true, I suppose, but Don, does that count, since he achieved this by going back to Williams?

[chunterer]

For some reason I was thinking about the upsurge in fortune for Brits, Button, Wheldon, Hamilton etcc and thought about Derek and Paul Warwick.

Both drivers were well quick and carried themselves very well. I don't think we covered 'Del' on here, but if he'd got that drive at Lotus alongside Senna in 1986 it could have been a different story in F1 for him, and Mansell great as he was, might never have got the plaudits he ended up with. However a few of his early Toleman drives were memorable, could've won a couple of GPs' with Renault in '84 but for reliability and even in the Arrows at the end of the 80's he was still quick.

Younger brother Paul was also a potential star but lost a couple of seasons with uncompetitive machinery in F3. He was establishing himself in British F3000 as the clear leader and there's little doubt he'd have got a front line drive in the FIA series in '92 if not for his tragic accident.

Totally different nationality, but there's been lots of talk about a certain Rossi lately - I seem to recall an ex karter in the early 90's; Danilo Rossi being hailed as a superstar in the making who later made a brief appearance in Italian F3000 a few years ago. He never achieved anywhere near the potential that was expected of him before his career hardly even started! What was the story there i wonder?! There's probably a load more karters of recent times who've not made the progression to cars in spite of their names being on a lot of people lips?

I'd also like our Canadian members to look up Benoit Vignault, (i think that was his name) who appeared for the Grandstand British FF2000 Winter Series in 1985 - I think he was a scholarship winner from the Richard Spenard school and driving a Dennis Rushen Reynard 84SF. Considering he knew little about the circuits, appeared to be pretty quick against some Brit FF2000 specialists of the time - more info needed on him!

[Fiorentina 1]

Italians: Montermini, Pacchioni, Gilardi, Gianiberti, Crinelli, Bugatti, & Colciago.
French: Dallast, Ferte Brothers, Tinseau, Janoray, Clerico, Sauvage, & Pompideax.
Brits: Lanfranchi, Hughes, Rees, Burt, Tarling, Coyne, & Kirkaldy.
Americans: Elton Julian, Jon Fogarty, Jeff Shafer, Phil Giebler, Matt Jaskol, Greg Tracy & Anthony Lazzaro.
Other: Iraj Alexandre-David, Julio Campos, David Empringham, Jan Magnussen, Marc Goosens, Markus Grossman, Arno Klassen, Arnd Meier & Ted Bjork.

And, the number 1 on my list: Diego Castro Santos, remember him?

[Pete Fenelon]

In the French corner: Dallest, Dolhem, Jaussaud - all should've gone much further for various reasons. (And people keep saying Denis Dayan was probably better than any of the others).

Lanfranchi turned down a Ferrari drive; racing was just part of the good life for him. A 12-stone Gerry Marshall might've been a damn useful single-seater driver though.

Giebler is looking slightly adrift in A1 at the moment.

Kirkaldy I think is slowly building up again - he came in for a lot of unjustified stick on and off track from the Clio regulars when he was racing against them, seemingly because he'd been in F3 and so on. I could see him getting into a top sports car drive in the next couple of years.

[Fiorentina 1]

Someone e-mailed me and said I listed way too many guys, and I should narrow it down. And, mentioned that Magnussen had his chance in F1. You are right.

1. Diego Castro-Santos
2. Elton Julian
3. Marc Goosens
4. Richard Tarling
5. Pacchioni (forgot first name, won Monaco F3 years ago).
6. Richard Dallast
7. Andrea Gilardi
8. Jeff Shafer
9. Alexandre Janoray
10. Warren Hughes
11. Matt Jaskol
12. Julio Campos

Everyone of the dozen mentioned had the talent to go far in F1. It's too bad, none of them got the chance. Guys like Magnussen, McNish, Lees, Corrado Fabi and Tackwell had a taste of F1, but never in the right car at the right time to prove their worth. And guys like; B.Fabi, Bellof, Winkelhock, M.Campos, Brise, Pryce & Gartner were killed before their time....

[chunterer]

Interesting to see this thread having a bit of a renaissance!

Fiorentina the Italian guy you mention is Gianantonio Pacchioni.

Your slimmed down list make sfor some interesting names including a couple that i'm not familiar with which is a shock to the system!!

DC Santos suffered at the time perhaps because Lamy and Chaves got most of the money that might have come out of Portugal, not sure how good he really was at the time probably somewhere in between those tow countrymen of his.

Julian certainly deserved more of a crack - he's come back recently as a competent Grand-Am driver hasn't he?

Goossens i think is one of those guys who was below the ultimate level I.E. quick on his day and a charger but not an outright ace.

Tarling certainly had a lot to offer, somehow Robbie Kerr has managed to keep on fighting for drives, maybe Tarling would have got the GB A1 drive if it was around a few years ago?

Janoray seemed promising but then disappeared, much like Benjamin Roy, Xavier Pompidou and Olivier Couvreur...

Tell me more about Matt Jaskol and Julio Campos, who were they up against and what were their circumstances or lack of opportunities?......

I thought your original list had more real potentials on it as well.

Re the French, personally I would put the likes of Tinseau and possibly Sauvage up there with likes of Bouchut (and Treluyer?) as possibly 'criminal' wastes of talent - these guys were F1 race winning material in the making without doubt.. Treluyer may still get his chance though (i'd like to see him out of Nippon and into GP2)

Re the Italians, i only see Montermini as true class of those you mention, a lot of the others just weren't consistent enough, or were too wild. Colciago was a major disappointment when he graduated from his F3 title year to 3000 in '91 with Crypton (a good team with a crap car the year before with Barbazza) and a Mader Cosworth powered Reynard. It took him years to recover from that.

IMO there were some better potentials at the time who looked like they were headed for the top like Antonio Tamburini, Giampiero Simoni and Marco Apicella, who is the worst case of wasted ability ever!! Naspetti and Morbidelli were also of the same era, but perhaps had a better chance of progress thanks to funding.

[chunterer]

Are Alx Danielsson, Robbie Kerr, James Courtney and Ryan Briscoe in danger of falling into this thread?

I guess we can't really say that about Alx as it depends on what he might be able to afford to do next season, but it is probable that the next 3 guys F1 aspirations are all but over?

[duke_toaster]

Perry McCarthy - sadly his only F1 appearances were for the comedy Andrea Moda outfit.

[chunterer]

Yeah, you're not the only one to think that. I think 'Pel' may have been mentioned towards the beginning of the thread by a few people.

He certainly is/was a useful driver but I think he was unfortunate to be up against such a strong crop of drivers in the mid-late 80's.

[Fiorentina 1]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Are Alx Danielsson, Robbie Kerr, James Courtney and Ryan Briscoe in danger of falling into this thread?

I guess we can't really say that about Alx as it depends on what he might be able to afford to do next season, but it is probable that the next 3 guys F1 aspirations are all but over?

Ryan Briscoe? Isn't he racing every weekend in the USA? He'll land the Penske IRL ride vacated by Hornish.

Grand-Am, V8 Super Cup, Brazilian Stock Cars and A1GP are giving guys a much need second chance. Goosens for example will be around for a while thanks to his Daytona Prototype win at Miller.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Fiorentina 1

Ryan Briscoe? Isn't he racing every weekend in the USA? He'll land the Penske IRL ride vacated by Hornish.

Grand-Am, V8 Super Cup, Brazilian Stock Cars and A1GP are giving guys a much need second chance. Goosens for example will be around for a while thanks to his Daytona Prototype win at Miller.

Yes I know what you're saying, but it's not really the point of this thread. There one or two coming men arguably doing A1 who might make it to F1. This is more about those who didn't make it.

Briscoe is an example of someone who many thought was on the way but it didn't work out for him in F1 and his chance is probably gone now, regardless of what he is doing elsewhere.

[Alan Raine]

Rick Morris - Stunning car control.

[btcckid]

i was watching david brabham on video from 1989 f3 which i bought yesterday and he was just fantastic-shame his time with f1 and bmw in btcc were both short- i think, put him a top f1 team and he would have done great!

[chunterer]

There's been a lot of differing opinion about David Brabham over the years. I thought he was unfortunate to go straight into F1 in 1990 with such a rubbish car, when he'd have been better off doing F3000 in a top team, but then I guess it was his choice. His older brother Gary did 3000 in '90 which may have also affected the decision making.

He then did some of the F3000 season in '91, (dovetailing that with some TWR Grp C rides IIRC) but arguably in the wrong team and car (Ralt) which slowed him up a bit.

A couple of years later he got another F1 chance with the Simtek but that was never going to work out well for him.

There's no doubt he would have done alright in a decent car though as you say btcckid. But there's an awful lot of 'driver cases' like that over the years.

[Graz]

Ones that stand out for me:

Martin Donnelly was a lost talent no doubt
Stafano Modena - great in lower formulae, total flop in F1
Andrea DeCesaris looked like he was special by the time he arrived in F1 but...
Johnny Herbert - he was the real deal
Derek Warwick if he got a decent break earlier in his F1 career
A couple of Irish drivers who should never have been allowed slip through the net - Michael Roe & Tommy Byrne

[jonners]

I always wonder what became of Brian Henton???

Apologies if I've missed reference to him in any of the above posts.