Supercars Gen 3 (2022)

[mayhem]

The answer to all this mess is currently capable of 2:04s around Bathurst, can be rebuilt and not written off after a shunt, has the ability to have interchangeable bodies and is a fraction of the price of a current supercar.

Go to the MARC cars, tell them you want the ability to stick Mustang, Camaro, supra, BMW and Merc bodies on their chassis, give Ford, Penske and whoever else wants to leave your regards and start racing them in 2021. I don't see the issue.

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by mayhem

The answer to all this mess is currently capable of 2:04s around Bathurst, can be rebuilt and not written off after a shunt, has the ability to have interchangeable bodies and is a fraction of the price of a current supercar.

Go to the MARC cars, tell them you want the ability to stick Mustang, Camaro, supra, BMW and Merc bodies on their chassis, give Ford, Penske and whoever else wants to leave your regards and start racing them in 2021. I don't see the issue.

Ford said today they have no interest in being involved in a “kit car” class and without involvement of another manufacturer they are out the door.
2021.Last Supercar year with an 18 car grid of existing cars and a charity tv deal.At the end of that Archer fold the tent.
Motor racing continues.

[one five five]

Originally Posted by mayhem

The answer to all this mess is currently capable of 2:04s around Bathurst, can be rebuilt and not written off after a shunt, has the ability to have interchangeable bodies and is a fraction of the price of a current supercar.

Go to the MARC cars, tell them you want the ability to stick Mustang, Camaro, supra, BMW and Merc bodies on their chassis, give Ford, Penske and whoever else wants to leave your regards and start racing them in 2021. I don't see the issue.

Some of us want to watch proper motor racing though, not hobby kits running around.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Alan52

Ford said today they have no interest in being involved in a “kit car” class and without involvement of another manufacturer they are out the door.
2021.Last Supercar year with an 18 car grid of existing cars and a charity tv deal.At the end of that Archer fold the tent.
Motor racing continues.

Do we even need Ford (as a manufacturer) to back the racing? Their withdrawal wont mean cars with Ford badges cant be raced.

Run a multi make (and relatively inexpensive) series based on MARC cars type of spec. chassis with body panels of whatever a team wishes to use. With crate / spec engines.

[one five five]

Originally Posted by E.B

Do we even need Ford (as a manufacturer) to back the racing? Their withdrawal wont mean cars with Ford badges cant be raced.

Run a multi make (and relatively inexpensive) series based on MARC cars type of spec. chassis with body panels of whatever a team wishes to use. With crate / spec engines.

And without that, you can’t call the competing car a “Ford” , or whatever.

Will the fans relate when the news tells them a “MARC” won Bathurst?

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by one five five

Some of us want to watch proper motor racing though, not hobby kits running around.

I'm not sure what you are getting at, there is negligible difference between a Supercars Car of the Future and a MARC car.

Supercar (Tickford in this case):


MARC car:


There's bugger all difference!?

[mayhem]

Originally Posted by one five five

And without that, you can’t call the competing car a “Ford” , or whatever.

Will the fans relate when the news tells them a “MARC” won Bathurst?

Will they care when they say SVG/Tander won for Red Bull? Doubt it. If ford want to go, wish them farewell. They've won a title and Bathurst, they got what they wanted.

[mayhem]

Originally Posted by one five five

Some of us want to watch proper motor racing though, not hobby kits running around.

Despite your glaring innacuracy, even if they are hobby kits as you say, who cares what they are if they're fast, entertaining, and financially viable?

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by one five five

And without that, you can’t call the competing car a “Ford” , or whatever.

Will the fans relate when the news tells them a “MARC” won Bathurst?

I'll continue to watch as long as they don't go to a generic engine.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by bluesport

I'll continue to watch as long as they don't go to a generic engine.

TA2 proves it doesn't necessarily diminish the racing.

Unfortunately as soon as you have Ford and Chev crate motors you get whining about parity, although it seems the V8 Utes did alright at managing that long term, and they sounded great.

[S griffin]

It could work if done the right way. I just hope that we don’t have all this talk about parity and let them get on with it. V8 Utes is a bit different though, although the spectacle and noise are great

[one five five]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

I'm not sure what you are getting at, there is negligible difference between a Supercars Car of the Future and a MARC car.

Supercar (Tickford in this case):


MARC car:


There's bugger all difference!?

There is one difference and it’s the most important. Ford gives IP approval for the styling and branding to be used on the Supercar, hence it’s called a Ford Mustang, they don’t on the MARC, hence why it’s officially called a MARC II V8.

This discussion is relating around a post saying we don’t need manufacturers. If you want to operate a big-business sport with purpose-built race cars not related to production models, but want to call them “Ford Mustangs” , then you need them to be involved, at the very least in an IP approval level, full stop.

[gravin]

Originally Posted by one five five

There is one difference and it’s the most important. Ford gives IP approval for the styling and branding to be used on the Supercar, hence it’s called a Ford Mustang, they don’t on the MARC, hence why it’s officially called a MARC II V8.

This discussion is relating around a post saying we don’t need manufacturers. If you want to operate a big-business sport with purpose-built race cars not related to production models, but want to call them “Ford Mustangs” , then you need them to be involved, at the very least in an IP approval level, full stop.

True, but if SC adopt the MARCII chassis they will be able to fit coupe panels whereas the SC chassis is too tall. Also it may be easier to adapt drivetrain mounts (engine and transaxle) than re-positioning the rollover hoops for SC chassis.

Personally, I would also like to see them retain the MARCII suspension to reduce cost.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Mixer

TA2 proves it doesn't necessarily diminish the racing.

Unfortunately as soon as you have Ford and Chev crate motors you get whining about parity, although it seems the V8 Utes did alright at managing that long term, and they sounded great.

It will be good for some to have generic engines but it's not for me, there would be no point in watching.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by bluesport

It will be good for some to have generic engines but it's not for me, there would be no point in watching.

Would you happier with a variety of different engines, but throttled back by limiting how far the throttle can open as they do in NZ?

So you have your, say, 4.4L twin-turbo BMW V8 but match it to the 5.0L Ford Windsor by not letting the Bimmer's (electronic) throttle open all the way?

That way, if you want to race a BMW, you could use a BMW engine, but without going to the cost of developing a 10:1 5.0L V8, as Nissan, Volvo and Mercedes had to do.

If they so choose, the Ford and Chevrolet runners could also cut costs by using engines closer to standard items too. I think it would be fun to have a 6.2L Chevy revving to 6500rpm against a 5.0L^ Ford revving to 8200rpm (with a suitably different final drive ratio to compensate), so that the two marques sound different.

^I don't think Ford runners would want to the use 5.2L Voodoo/Alluminator block as it's just the same 5.0L block but with thinner cylinder walls, and the plasma arc cylinder liners that are thus used mean it can't be rehoned. https://youtu.be/yBl5mYMsBSI?t=40

Originally Posted by bluesport

It will be good for some to have generic engines but it's not for me, there would be no point in watching.

Or do you suppose the eight butterflies, and all that customisation is important, and lightly tweaked road car engines won't do?

[Compromised]

As Mixer said, different engines = parity sooking.

If you're going to go through a major structural upheaval in how the series is regulated, it might be prudent to do away with controversial areas during the rejig.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Would you happier with a variety of different engines, but throttled back by limiting how far the throttle can open as they do in NZ?

So you have your, say, 4.4L twin-turbo BMW V8 but match it to the 5.0L Ford Windsor by not letting the Bimmer's (electronic) throttle open all the way?

That way, if you want to race a BMW, you could use a BMW engine, but without going to the cost of developing a 10:1 5.0L V8, as Nissan, Volvo and Mercedes had to do.

If they so choose, the Ford and Chevrolet runners could also cut costs by using engines closer to standard items too. I think it would be fun to have a 6.2L Chevy revving to 6500rpm against a 5.0L^ Ford revving to 8200rpm (with a suitably different final drive ratio to compensate), so that the two marques sound different.

^I don't think Ford runners would want to the use 5.2L Voodoo/Alluminator block as it's just the same 5.0L block but with thinner cylinder walls, and the plasma arc cylinder liners that are thus used mean it can't be rehoned. https://youtu.be/yBl5mYMsBSI?t=40



Or do you suppose the eight butterflies, and all that customisation is important, and lightly tweaked road car engines won't do?

For me I would go with stock engines tweaked and a BoP formula.
.

[ford71]

Another vote for each make to use the correct powerplant....TA2 is excellent but I'd prefer to see Ford and Chev engines rather than everyone running the one type.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Would you happier with a variety of different engines, but throttled back by limiting how far the throttle can open as they do in NZ?

So you have your, say, 4.4L twin-turbo BMW V8 but match it to the 5.0L Ford Windsor by not letting the Bimmer's (electronic) throttle open all the way?

That way, if you want to race a BMW, you could use a BMW engine, but without going to the cost of developing a 10:1 5.0L V8, as Nissan, Volvo and Mercedes had to do.

If they so choose, the Ford and Chevrolet runners could also cut costs by using engines closer to standard items too. I think it would be fun to have a 6.2L Chevy revving to 6500rpm against a 5.0L^ Ford revving to 8200rpm (with a suitably different final drive ratio to compensate), so that the two marques sound different.

^I don't think Ford runners would want to the use 5.2L Voodoo/Alluminator block as it's just the same 5.0L block but with thinner cylinder walls, and the plasma arc cylinder liners that are thus used mean it can't be rehoned. https://youtu.be/yBl5mYMsBSI?t=40



Or do you suppose the eight butterflies, and all that customisation is important, and lightly tweaked road car engines won't do?

Getting a matched power curve from two very different engines would be an interesting exercise and I suspect one that would be very expensive. The power curve of a OHV two valve motor is totally different to a TOHC motor with four valves. Restricted the throttle also has varying degrees of usefulness depending on the ratios in the drive train, first gear not so much, top gear a lot.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Compromised

As Mixer said, different engines = parity sooking.

Isn't technical parity already overboard? Leading to boring processions since the cars all are virtually identical.

GT3 seems to do just fine with a balance of performance formula. The key is to avoid bias when applying balance of performance.

[Backagain]

Originally Posted by Casper

Getting a matched power curve from two very different engines would be an interesting exercise and I suspect one that would be very expensive. The power curve of a OHV two valve motor is totally different to a TOHC motor with four valves. Restricted the throttle also has varying degrees of usefulness depending on the ratios in the drive train, first gear not so much, top gear a lot.

Well there is the solution to the current boring racing, having different power units with different characteristics would provide more overtaking possibilities, a bit like the PP13B vs the Holden 304, Brock would streak away on the straights and Moffat would come flying back under brakes and through corners although you would also have to fiddle with minimum weights to match.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Backagain

Well there is the solution to the current boring racing, having different power units with different characteristics would provide more overtaking possibilities, a bit like the PP13B vs the Holden 304, Brock would streak away on the straights and Moffat would come flying back under brakes and through corners although you would also have to fiddle with minimum weights to match.

That kind of racing is no longer allowed it seems, too variable and interesting.

[Compromised]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Isn't technical parity already overboard? Leading to boring processions since the cars all are virtually identical.

The series currently has an obsession with parity and to be fair, it's what it's always been sold as.

What we've seen recently is the realization that you can't have parity with 75% spec cars - it's all or nothing.

As to wether parity makes bad racing, I'm undecided. It certainly allows the better teams/drivers to shine, but I do believe it would become more processional. Maybe cars with no downforce, worse brakes, engines with less linear torque... anything that increases driver error, allowing a passing opportunity.

[mite5255]

Originally Posted by Backagain

Well there is the solution to the current boring racing, having different power units with different characteristics would provide more overtaking possibilities, a bit like the PP13B vs the Holden 304, Brock would streak away on the straights and Moffat would come flying back under brakes and through corners although you would also have to fiddle with minimum weights to match.

And if I remember correctly, all the major teams spent heaps going to court sorting out parity

[chavez]

Originally Posted by mite5255

And if I remember correctly, all the major teams spent heaps going to court sorting out parity

The only team that went to court was HDT regarding penalties they received from CAMS over eligibility of the SS Commodore in 1982. It was later settled out of court.

However teams spared no expense lobbying the court of public opinion.

One wonders if today's team owners and drivers have the wit of Brock, Johnson, Grice and Moffat to generate such good copy for salivating hacks.