Nissan LMP1 Discussion

[bentley speed 8]

Nissan likely can do faster laps than what they did at the test day, but I do have doubts on whether they can last the distance. Having 3 cars will help in that aspect, if they can keep out of trouble with the traffic. Still it's clear that the car hasn't done much in the way of long runs.

Looks like their biggest let down has been the hybrid system, as the whole car is just designed around a 8 MJ unit. I hope they can get it to work reliably at least next year.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Nothing against them, love them for what they do

yet you've been one of the first ones to tear them down....

I also like the much-repeated "But they were running a testing programme!".. so was everybody else, or does anybody really believe that either Rebellion, Kolles or the other works cars were going for quick times?

So. just because they were working though their own program, somehow that means they can, and should be compared to what everyone else is up to? I fail to see how you can compare what any other program was doing from a testing perspective, to what Nissan was doing

None of them were, so the gap is most likely going to stay the same come race week. Perhaps even more worryingly is Nissan's apparent reliability issues and the lack of running.. how they're hoping to get these cars home is beyond me.

Testing, testing, and more testing. They have to work through the data they gathered yesterday. Also. Can you point out the mechanical, or electrical failures from yesterday?

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

yet you've been one of the first ones to tear them down....

Some would call him a realist.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Somebody had some fun with some of Nissan's on-track slogans


I am told that the Corvette staff might be behind this, because the Nissan guys are allegedly working round-the-clock on the cars and don't actually sleep much at the moment.

[carbon_titanium]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

I am told that the Corvette staff might be behind this, because the Nissan guys are allegedly working round-the-clock on the cars and don't actually sleep much at the moment.

nevermind, judging by the laughable performance achieved so far, nissan personnel and engineers slept for too long during the development process of the car

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

yet you've been one of the first ones to tear them down....

Testing, testing, and more testing. They have to work through the data they gathered yesterday. Also. Can you point out the mechanical, or electrical failures from yesterday?

I'm pretty sure Acid was talking about Kolles?

As for the second part. Are you asking specifically what the issues were? Or implying there weren't any? https://twitter.com/NISMO/status/604...729602?lang=en

[Articus]

Originally Posted by carbon_titanium

nevermind, judging by the laughable performance achieved so far, nissan personnel and engineers slept for too long during the development process of the car

I get it, you might not be very impressed by Nissan but right now, but you really need to gain some perspective instead of being insulting to these hard working individuals. It is damn hard to build any kind of racecar and we are lucky that the other teams make it look so easy. If you've ever been involved in any kind of program like this, sounds like you have not, then you would understand how and why Nissan look the way they do right now, and don't seem to be concerned. This is all just a part of the process. Would you have preferred that Nissan just pulled out completely and didn't enter until 2016?

If you think about it that's what Porsche did. They made the announcement in 2011 and did not hit the track until 2014 season. Despite having recent prototype experience in the RS Spyder. Now here comes Nissan only making the announcement in 2014 for a 2015 FWD racecar...They shouldn't even be here until 2017 so kudos to them.

Now what I don't really appreciate is the aggressive marketing strategy but let's separate the marketing from the hardworking engineers on this project. I know that feeling because I've been a part of engineering projects where we had arrogant marketing strategist turning all of our internal conjecture into false promises for customers.

[deggis]

In Jay Leno's garage:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fw_2N3tGMEg

[MitchZ06]

Hands up those who were expecting them to be on pace already and are proclaiming the sky is falling down after one public test session.

Hands up those who think it's bound to fail from the start.

Hands up those people who actually have a brain and are waiting to see where this car ends up after 24 hours of round the clock racing in a couple of weeks to really see what this car is capable of.

Sit down the rest of you, this is getting to be a joke....

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

Hands up those people who actually have a brain and are waiting to see where this car ends up after 24 hours of round the clock racing in a couple of weeks to really see what this car is capable of.

I still think that is kind of missing the point. This upcoming race is not going to show us what the car is ultimately capable of. At best it will show us a glimpse of what the car could do in the future.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by Simmi

I'm pretty sure Acid was talking about Kolles?

Doubtful.

As for the second part. Are you asking specifically what the issues were? Or implying there weren't any? https://twitter.com/NISMO/status/604...729602?lang=en

I was asking as the issues they've had were relatively minor, and have plagued plenty of other teams. Stupid to point it out like it's a major problem. Could have been as simple as a connector not being fully closed, or a fouled sensor.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Articus

I get it, you might not be very impressed by Nissan but right now, but you really need to gain some perspective instead of being insulting to these hard working individuals. It is damn hard to build any kind of racecar and we are lucky that the other teams make it look so easy. If you've ever been involved in any kind of program like this, sounds like you have not, then you would understand how and why Nissan look the way they do right now, and don't seem to be concerned. This is all just a part of the process. Would you have preferred that Nissan just pulled out completely and didn't enter until 2016?

If you think about it that's what Porsche did. They made the announcement in 2011 and did not hit the track until 2014 season. Despite having recent prototype experience in the RS Spyder. Now here comes Nissan only making the announcement in 2014 for a 2015 FWD racecar...They shouldn't even be here until 2017 so kudos to them.

Now what I don't really appreciate is the aggressive marketing strategy but let's separate the marketing from the hardworking engineers on this project. I know that feeling because I've been a part of engineering projects where we had arrogant marketing strategist turning all of our internal conjecture into false promises for customers.

Ditto!

I think folks are missing the impact of doing a very unusual car. With a conventional car, you can poach staff from other teams and they already know a lot about how your car behaves and how to set it up before they start to work on it. They are all fairly similar. With this car, it behaves a lot different and everybody has a big learning curve. Same with the drivers. FWD cars behave differently and their drivers are having to learn how to get the speed out of it, where they could hop in any of the RWD cars and get up to speed fairly quickly.

This team will make the largest gains in speed between the test and the end of their laps during the race (unless the hybrid system poops out during the race), because they are all still on a steep learning curve.

Innovation always comes at a price, which is why we see so precious little of it.

[carbon_titanium]

Originally Posted by Articus

I get it, you might not be very impressed by Nissan but right now, but you really need to gain some perspective instead of being insulting to these hard working individuals. It is damn hard to build any kind of racecar and we are lucky that the other teams make it look so easy.

Actually I didn't insult anyone, sometimes a satire sentence can tell more than 1000 words . I simply can't have empathy for nissan! we are not talking about a small private team that struggles to field a car because of lack of money like pescarolo in 2012... we are talking about the work team of one of the wealthiest car manufacturer in the world. Their shame... my laugh at the first, my indifference soon after

[CyberMotor]

Originally Posted by deggis

In Jay Leno's garage:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fw_2N3tGMEg

That was good! Thanks.

Still a lot of decisions, tradeoffs and compromises to be made. It's going to be interesting seeing how all of these have been resolved by Le Mans.

I wish I could see a segment like this on the other three (Audi, Toyota and Porsche).

[carbon_titanium]

Originally Posted by miatanut

Ditto!

I think folks are missing the impact of doing a very unusual car. With a conventional car, you can poach staff from other teams and they already know a lot about how your car behaves and how to set it up before they start to work on it. They are all fairly similar. With this car, it behaves a lot different and everybody has a big learning curve. Same with the drivers. FWD cars behave differently and their drivers are having to learn how to get the speed out of it, where they could hop in any of the RWD cars and get up to speed fairly quickly.

This team will make the largest gains in speed between the test and the end of their laps during the race (unless the hybrid system poops out during the race), because they are all still on a steep learning curve.

Innovation always comes at a price, which is why we see so precious little of it.

Personally disagree at all... not because nissan lmp1 is FWD or too "innovative" but because is an uncompetitive car. I don't give a thing about the look, to have a great pace is all that matters.
You talk about innovation, well... first of all the car hasn't even a real electric device as MGU or however you want call it, so where is the innovation?
and then, I talk about darwinism... if the mid-engined layout became a standard for everyone, I guess a there is a reason.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by carbon_titanium

Personally disagree at all... not because nissan lmp1 is FWD or too "innovative" but because is an uncompetitive car. I don't give a thing about the look, to have a great pace is all that matters.
You talk about innovation, well... first of all the car hasn't even a real electric device as MGU or however you want call it, so where is the innovation?
and then, I talk about darwinism... if the mid-engined layout became a standard for everyone, I guess a there is a reason.

I don't remember if it was Jim Hall himself, or a racing writer talking about Hall's cars who said "The last of the old will always beat the first of the new" (or something very similar).

Just because the highly refined machines it is up against are faster, doesn't mean it isn't innovative or a better idea. It was four years from the first rear engine entry at Indy before a rear engine car won. Many failed along the way.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by miatanut

Innovation always comes at a price, which is why we see so precious little of it.

And though I appreciate all of it from Nissan, I think that Darren Cox and company are now regretting it.... I for one wouldn't blame them for a second. All the negativity and the constant lies and stupid statements have to take a toll on them.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

And though I appreciate all of it from Nissan, I think that Darren Cox and company are now regretting it.... I for one wouldn't blame them for a second. All the negativity and the constant lies and stupid statements have to take a toll on them.

It works both ways. This car has gotten a lot of attention and love for trying a new angle.

[Keycube]

Originally Posted by Articus

I get it, you might not be very impressed by Nissan but right now, but you really need to gain some perspective instead of being insulting to these hard working individuals...

Yes yes yes. Very much THIS.

I will admit to being a fanboy of this project, but it has nothing to do with Nissan, per se. I don't own a Nissan, never have. I am a huge fan of attempts at something new that makes us think, and have us reconsider all that was understood to be engineering "givens".

If the car isn't competitive right now, no one on this board knows exactly why. I say again, if it were a supplier issue, and promises weren't delivered (which could affect not just power but likely rear driveline as well), then that's just downright unfortunate for everyone involved, including us! Any fan of motorsport should want this car to at least be competitive.

On the flip side, if those on the creative end totally boned their calculations, and in fact this car never stood a chance in terms of balance, hybrid concept, or whatever, here's the thing - they STILL put a running, finished product on track at LeMans whilst battling a compressed design schedule and conducting the grandest of motorsport experiments in full view of everyone. PR people didn't do that. Ben Bowlby and Darren Cox didn't even do that. Hard working laborers that love motorsport did that; and from the look of every video I've seen of those folks at test events, everyone looks to be having a blast. And how could any fan of motorsport not have enjoyed getting the behind the scenes glimpses they have provided us?

Given both of these scenarios, and they many shades of grey in between, there is no reason to wish them ill will (for any reason, but especially if) simply because at one time, men in suits said - gasp! - that they're here to win.

These are real people that believe in something. They could be doing anything, it doesn't have to be the development of a race car. They may even read social media. The notion that someone that's a part of something - something that we all profess to love - could tune in to find their efforts being mocked or disparaged, seems very sad. But I know, it's just the Internet, right.

I haven't been on the board long and perhaps haven't earned the "cred" to write such a thing, but I felt I needed to anyway.

As always, IMHO.

Robert

[lne937s]

Originally Posted by miatanut

I don't remember if it was Jim Hall himself, or a racing writer talking about Hall's cars who said "The last of the old will always beat the first of the new" (or something very similar).

Just because the highly refined machines it is up against are faster, doesn't mean it isn't innovative or a better idea. It was four years from the first rear engine entry at Indy before a rear engine car won. Many failed along the way.

To follow up on this, why some configuration becomes the predominant form has as much to do with the rule book as anything else. Front Wheel Drive Millers dominated the Indy 500 before being made illegal. But it took a while before Millers dominated the field. Front engine cars can be very fast (Nissan GT500 cars were fast enough to have qualified 4th overall in WEC at Fuji). Due to short sited rule making in many series and the lack of development, we have yet to see what front-engine, FWD is truly capable of on the track...



WEC cars ran on gas before Audi-- if they took the "Darwin" thinking, there would be no way Audi could have ever won.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Keycube

I haven't been on the board long and perhaps haven't earned the "cred" to write such a thing, but I felt I needed to anyway.

As always, IMHO.

Robert

I think your comments are spot on and you do have the "cred" to make them.

[Adam43]

Keycube, that is a very fair post Considered, well expressed and puts some who didn't join last month to shame.
(This comment is not based on the opinion expressed at all, rather the way it was put forward)

[carbon_titanium]

Originally Posted by lne937s

To follow up on this, why some configuration becomes the predominant form has as much to do with the rule book as anything else. Front Wheel Drive Millers dominated the Indy 500 before being made illegal. But it took a while before Millers dominated the field. Front engine cars can be very fast (Nissan GT500 cars were fast enough to have qualified 4th overall in WEC at Fuji). Due to short sited rule making in many series and the lack of development, we have yet to see what front-engine, FWD is truly capable of on the track...



WEC cars ran on gas before Audi-- if they took the "Darwin" thinking, there would be no way Audi could have ever won.

If nissan lmp1 was able to run in 3.25, 3.27 at least, I'd be the first to congratulate with them! but right now is just an unconventional car extremely uncompetitive and surely extremely unreliable. I can't see any real innovation here! just a bad concept that made a bad car so far.
Wrong example about audi... 2006 regulamentations clearly helped turbodiesel motors.

[TF110]

Looking forward to seeing how they improve. I think its great they have proven the low drag works considering their top speed. On the spectator videos available from the test, you can see they werent even trying to pass except on the straight. They let gt's and lmp's go. Mostly looked like they were instructed to stay out of other competitors way and press on when they have space. No risks at all.

[gustavobamba]

Originally Posted by TF110

Looking forward to seeing how they improve. I think its great they have proven the low drag works considering their top speed. On the spectator videos available from the test, you can see they werent even trying to pass except on the straight. They let gt's and lmp's go. Mostly looked like they were instructed to stay out of other competitors way and press on when they have space. No risks at all.

Any link of that Nissan videos..please