Nissan LMP1 Discussion

[Hawkwood]

Originally Posted by Fishey

I think I might be the only one that think this thing looks like its going to be a turd and it is an absolute let down in terms of technology. The only thing revolutionary about this car in its design is the through body aerodynamics and weather they are enough to make this heap competitive is yet to be seen.

The only place it will be competitive is at Le-mans.I doubt they even run any other events given its design.

Well Le Mans is what Nissan are aiming for above all else, so if they can win Le Mans with this car it'll be mission accomplished and they'll be very happy.

[Fishey]

Originally Posted by Hawkwood

Well Le Mans is what Nissan are aiming for above all else, so if they can win Le Mans with this car it'll be mission accomplished and they'll be very happy.

They will be lucky to be competitive that is giving the Aero design likely way to much credit.

[wdave0]

Note this thread already has more posts than the Toyota LMP1 thread and they did win stuff and have run several years, NISSAN hasn't.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Fishey

I think I might be the only one that think this thing looks like its going to be a turd and it is an absolute let down in terms of technology. The only thing revolutionary about this car in its design is the through body aerodynamics and weather they are enough to make this heap competitive is yet to be seen.

The only place it will be competitive is at Le-mans. I doubt they even run any other events given its design.

Well, they have signed up for the whole WEC season with two cars, so they are going to run other events!

Originally Posted by Fishey

They will be lucky to be competitive that is giving the Aero design likely way to much credit.

I'm sorry, but I have to question how you can so comfortably say that they will be a failure?
What do you have to back this up?, it's a new car, with a new concepts, in base we haven't seen for a long time.
The reason why the Nissan is generating so much buzz is because they are going to do something different from everyone else, and that is applauded. You don't see many people comment on the performance - simply because we don't know yet!

And welcome to the forum, by the way!

[Fishey]

Originally Posted by CTD

Well, they have signed up for the whole WEC season with two cars, so they are going to run other events!

I'm sorry, but I have to question how you can so comfortably say that they will be a failure?
What do you have to back this up?, it's a new car, with a new concepts, in base we haven't seen for a long time.
The reason why the Nissan is generating so much buzz is because they are going to do something different from everyone else, and that is applauded. You don't see many people comment on the performance - simply because we don't know yet!

And welcome to the forum, by the way!

The entire car is built to a level that is just way under what I would expect from an LMP1 car especially a factory effort.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Fishey

The entire car is built to a level that is just way under what I would expect from an LMP1 car especially a factory effort.

In what way? And in any case, translating even the best racing car design to a finished product is never without issues, there's always at least a few problems in building a car no matter how well everything fits together in the original design; even more so for a clean-sheet-of-paper design instead of an evolution of a previous car.

[Fishey]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

In what way?

In almost every aspect of the car its built with some very old methods that are not common in high level motorsport anymore.

Steel Fabricated Uprights, (CNC Aluminum is standard, MMR is cool guy stuff) The last time I saw a set was on maybe a Riley DP or Lola Indy car.

Aluminum Brake Ducting, (carbon is standard) No Shroud

Round Steel Tube Suspension Arms

Standard Style Calipers (LMP2 Style) similar to what the RS spider ran in LMP2

Etc.. Etc..

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Fishey

I think I might be the only one that think this thing looks like its going to be a turd and it is an absolute let down in terms of technology. The only thing revolutionary about this car in its design is the through body aerodynamics and weather they are enough to make this heap competitive is yet to be seen.

The only place it will be competitive is at Le-mans. I doubt they even run any other events given its design.

Their biggest problem at the moment is they are using a flywheel KERS system, which people who know about such things think is the ultimate way to go for the best energy to weight ratio, but it is a very new technology, lacking development, which may ultimately threaten the whole thing. In other words, the car is suffering somewhat from some of its innovation.

Originally Posted by Fishey

The entire car is built to a level that is just way under what I would expect from an LMP1 car especially a factory effort.

They are trying to do this on a much lower budget than the others, and if the car has truly found a major edge through its very unusual design (and get the KERS working properly), they will pull it off. The other cars HAVE to be highly refined, because they are all working from pretty much the same overall concept and execution is the key to finding an advantage.

The Nissan is a lot like a typical Chaparral. It has innovative ideas, but it's not very refined. If they can get it working right, it can dominate. If they cannot, it will leave them out of the points.

I really appreciate seeing that sort of approach again in top level racing.

[GTfour]

Originally Posted by Fishey

In almost every aspect of the car its built with some very old methods that are not common in high level motorsport anymore.

Steel Fabricated Uprights, (CNC Aluminum is standard, MMR is cool guy stuff) The last time I saw a set was on maybe a Riley DP or Lola Indy car.

Aluminum Brake Ducting, (carbon is standard) No Shroud

Round Steel Tube Suspension Arms

Standard Style Calipers (LMP2 Style) similar to what the RS spider ran in LMP2

Etc.. Etc..

It is quite obvious you're still a rookie here. First of, try to react politely if someone welcomes you to the best motorsportsforum there is, second, you might want to back down a bit on the burning of this Nissan effort. They ARE venturing into area's where no one else has ever dared to go. It would grace your manners if you'd show them the respect they deserve for that.
In my opinion it's rather unwise to try to scoff a big factory effort like this. Granted, seldom have brandnew cars won Le Mans first time out, but do you believe Nissan to be so rash or ill prepared to throw many tenths of millions on developing something they know won't have a chance to do what they intend? I don't think so. Nissan has unfinished business at Le Mans, you can be sure they know what they're doing...

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by GTfour

... do you believe Nissan to be so rash or ill prepared to throw many tenths of millions on developing something they know won't have a chance to do what they intend? Nissan has unfinished business at Le Mans, you can be sure they know what they're doing...

After seeing the DeltaWing, I'd have said, "No, Nissan is pretty good about backing an innovative designer unafraid to tear the box to pieces." After the ZE-Odd I'd have to say, "They wasted however many millions on this, and because they wouldn't spend just a little more it was pretty much a total failure. Whose plan was that?"

One thing is for sure, Ben Bowlby is one of the better and more radical designers out there. He could have built a marginally better P2 or IndyCar, but he wanted to go big. This new GT-R LM is well thought out, and if Nissan doesn't cheap out on it, could be a competitive and very eye-catching design (which is what Nissan really wants, right?)

If Nissan doesn't give the project what it needs, the whole thing will be a waste and an embarrassment and among racing fans Nissan will be a joke.

But ... the thing is a long way from turning its first race laps, so I think I will wait until there is some real-world data before I try to figure out what's up with the project. After Silverstone and Spa we might have some clue about the car ... after Le Mans we will all know enough to have valid opinions.

[mikuni]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

But ... the thing is a long way from turning its first race laps, so I think I will wait until there is some real-world data before I try to figure out what's up with the project. After Silverstone and Spa we might have some clue about the car ... after Le Mans we will all know enough to have valid opinions.

It's still it's first season though. To expect a team/manufacturer to go into any world championship season aiming for big results is a massive ask. We have to be reasonable and say that Nissan should realistically be hoping for a podium at the very best. A finish at Le Mans is a huge achievement in itself.

I really want this project to be successful, and I love the concept of a FWD LMP1. But, I don't want it to be so successful that next year all the other manufacturers follow suit and we have a whole field of things that look like this. It's beauty is in the fact that it is challenging the norm and breaking out of the box and I hope it stays that way.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by GTfour

It is quite obvious you're still a rookie here. First of, try to react politely if someone welcomes you to the best motorsportsforum there is, second, you might want to back down a bit on the burning of this Nissan effort. They ARE venturing into area's where no one else has ever dared to go. It would grace your manners if you'd show them the respect they deserve for that.
In my opinion it's rather unwise to try to scoff a big factory effort like this. Granted, seldom have brandnew cars won Le Mans first time out, but do you believe Nissan to be so rash or ill prepared to throw many tenths of millions on developing something they know won't have a chance to do what they intend? I don't think so. Nissan has unfinished business at Le Mans, you can be sure they know what they're doing...

He answered the question. I didnt see anything rude there. Maybe a "thank you" was in order, though Some of the points he makes has merit imo. Just because its a factory effort doesn't make it a 'good effort'. But I dont doubt Nissan knows what its doing. Time will tell.

[GT6]

We must all try to be as polite as possible, yes we all have different ideas and that is why the forum is so good, but people must try to refrain from using it to mock the efforts of teams without whom the sport would be much less interesting and slowly die. We need to encourage innovation not discourage it

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by TF110

He answered the question. I didnt see anything rude there. Maybe a "thank you" was in order, though Some of the points he makes has merit imo. Just because its a factory effort doesn't make it a 'good effort'. But I dont doubt Nissan knows what its doing. Time will tell.

Lotus, with five mechanics and trailering their cars around behind a pickup (driven by mechanics) was beating Ferrari with their big factory effort and big, double decker transporter (packed with spares).

You can beat a much better funded & refined effort if you have a better idea. Problem is, with the rules as strict as they are now, it's very hard to find a better idea that complies with the rules. This is a team that may well have done that.

It's a little hard to accept people showing up out of nowhere declaring this effort is completely wrong after all the predictions the Deltawing would fall over in the first turn, which it didn't, and this car is by many of the same people.

[GT6]

I remember the howls of everyone when Audi announced a diesel car and to be honest i was not that happy myself, but it worked and i am now much more interested in seeing something different than just moaning about change and people trying different ways to achieve the desired result

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by mikuni

But, I don't want it to be so successful that next year all the other manufacturers follow suit and we have a whole field of things that look like this.

Why not?

All the cars now look pretty near identical to each other, and to most of the closed cars of the last 30 years.

Why not have a big change of pace for a few years?

[GT6]

Originally Posted by miatanut

Why not?

All the cars now look pretty near identical to each other, and to most of the closed cars of the last 30 years.

Why not have a big change of pace for a few years?

Totally agree, rather see a selection of different looking cars with different sounds than all of them looking the same, one make car series are available as support races everywhere as they can not attract enough people to pay to watch them on their own. Viva la difference i say

[Maelochs]

I frankly don't care what the cars look like, in P1. In P1 I want to see cars that are as fast as the engineers can make them within the rules. I don't care where the engine is or if they look like everything else or nothing else or anything as at so long as they are not invisible.

If Ben Bowlby can make this work, I will not be surprised and I will be pleased to see a slightly different concept proved, but I would also be surprised if everyone else went F/E unless the Nissan was a few seconds a lap quicker, which I think unlikely.

The engineers at Toyota, Porsche, and Audi know what they are doing as well, and I am pretty sure they build cars that go about as fast as the rules allow. Ben Bowlby might find a new way to get there but I doubt he will get markedly beyond the rest.

If the Nissan really blows the rest of the competition off the track, then I will enjoy looking for the differences between Porsche's, Audi's, and Toyota's new F/E, AWD chassis.

As for Nissan or any other manufacturer needing our unwavering support ... No. If a person politely says he strongly dislikes a car or team and has some rationale for that, say it. Nissan isn't about to shut down because one guy on a forum said their car was ugly. As for it being underbuilt ... maybe the speed with which it was designed and built (it wasn't even finished in time for the CotA roll-out) and the fact that it is so experimental also dictated cheaper, quicker fabrication solutions.

Let the car prove its concepts, and I would imagine Nissan would then go back and start removing weight and adding strength even if the process was expensive, because it would need to, to compete for wins ... unless the car does fine right out of the box. Steel uprights aren't a problem strength-wise--unless the car is overweight they shouldn't be a probelm at all.

[Hawkwood]

A slight aside, but relevent considering what's being talked about here:

Is there any limit to the amount of testing an LMP1 (or any other sportscar team) can do?
Is it a case of doing however much you can afford, or is it more restrictive like F1?

[GTfour]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

"If a person politely says he strongly dislikes a car or team and has some rationale for that, say it."

Absolutely, but I guess our opinions on politeness differ then. If I'm polite, I don't use words like 'turd' or 'this heap' to discribe one of the top running sportscar efforts.

Last time Nissan fielded a factory effort to go for the crown, they also send in three cars loaded with talented drivers(and a fourth one in the hands of a privateer team). Yes, the opposition was considerably faster but they still managed to get to the podium.
The GT-R LM is something else then the far out ZEOD. I think it's safe to say they've managed to get the thing somewhere near reasonable laptimes. They been running the car for at least a month now, benchtested the engines ruthlessly and are giving the drivers more and more hours of testing time.
I highly doubt they'd do all this with something that could barely eclipse LMP2 laptimes. On top of that, they are fielding three of these spaceships. A factory doesn't field such an armada 'just to get it's feet wet'.

[Maelochs]

As I believe I said earlier, I will wait until after Le Mans to make a serious evaluation ... and then maybe not until Le Mans 2016.

But I have no loyalty to any manufacturer or constructor. I am not an the payroll of any of them.

We do all have different ideas of politeness. I think it is best to speak one's mind but I try to use non-offending terms unless I am trying to offend.

On the other hand, I realize sometimes others use terms I find offensive but they are not trying to offend ... and in any case, the determination of whether I am offended is mine.

Free speech sucks, except compared to any alternatives.

I hope Nissan can get the car up to pace in the first two races, and isn't sidelined by the kind of minor mechanical faults and failures which can slow development. Toyota lost one car at Le Mans because of a faulty FIA-provided fuel sensor which probably cost less than a pack of gum.

[bjohnsonsmith]

I'm looking forward to seeing it run, particularly at Le Mans and I take my hat off to Ben Bowlby for once again looking at the alternative, rather than the conventional.

[GT6]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I'm looking forward to seeing it run, particularly at Le Mans and I take my hat off to Ben Bowlby for once again looking at the alternative, rather than the conventional.

You have my vote on that

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by Hawkwood

A slight aside, but relevent considering what's being talked about here:

Is there any limit to the amount of testing an LMP1 (or any other sportscar team) can do?
Is it a case of doing however much you can afford, or is it more restrictive like F1?

"Vincent Beaumesnil, sporting manager of WEC promoter and co-organiser the Automobile Club de l'Ouest, told AUTOSPORT: "We have agreed on 50 car days maximum; if you test two cars on one day, that is two car days."
Autosport.com

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/116023

[Rodger Davies]

All credit to Nissan for releasing this: http://youtu.be/E8Kzazvcc98