[Rumours] Groundhog Day’s Hamilton vs Masi - P45s at the ready?

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Alan52

You’re right.
The only verifiable tantrum thrower at the moment is Toto.
Does failing to attend the FIA prize giving count?Probably.
Either way Lewis’s actions will tell us soon enough.

Not even sure I’d see that as throwing a tantrum, given the consequences he’s been pretty restrained compared with the likes of Horner and Max after Silverstone and Saudi…..

Personally I don’t think there’s any harm in trying to hold the FIA to account in the way Mercedes is doing. They’ve admitted defeat, congratulated the winners and are now expecting the FIA as the governing body to improve.

Again, stark contrast to Red Bull, airing their dirty laundry after the above incidents.

Edit: im not trying to turn this into a red bull/ Mercedes’ thing, just trying to use an example of what I’d consider a proper tantrum given the context of what’s gone on this year.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Lewis must be the only driver in history to get out of the car, congratulate the winners, say nothing since and be accused of having a tantrum.

Mind boggling

Guilt by bad representation by friend Toto, who needs to get his rear kicked by the FIA for bringing the sport into disrepute.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by wnut

Guilt by bad representation by friend Toto, who needs to get his rear kicked by the FIA for bringing the sport into disrepute.

How has be brought the sport into disrepute?

I thought guilt was determined by evidence, since none has been presented, guilt hasn’t been determined and Toto hasn’t been charged by the FIA i suggest you are talking utter nonsense

[Derwent]

it is remarkable that Lewis has been able to disappear completely in this day and age. I do hope he takes the time to have a good think about life.
I have great admiration for Nico Rosberg for getting out when he was young and had achieved his goal. Looking at his IG account he seems to be having a very happy life.
Perhaps Lewis's worse case scenario is to race this year and perhaps next and be less competitive and not win another championship. If he goes now he goes at the top.
I worry about these youngsters who have been born to be F1 racers like Max and Lando, do they have real life experiences that the rest of us do and will this lead to mental health issues in the future?

[bella]

leaving a sport is a fairly standard crisis point for most athletes, footballers being the most well known. motorsport is handy in that you can just shift across into the team, coaching or series management side. that's why nowadays sports psychologists and the like do emphasise the importance of interests and a life outside a sport, but given the sheer amount of time and effort you have to dedicate to being an athlete it's a pretty big challenge to fit something else in as well as the standard self care like sleep and rest.

it's funny because a while ago people were handbagging lewis for having an involvement in the fashion and music industries. now pretty much the same people are wondering and dramatising what he'll do if he can't be arsed with the drama and egos any more.

and believe me, egos are a bit part of what makes the sport marginally bearable. i think lewis and toto have hit the same wall.

[VIVA GT]

I think that Lewis will be back racing again this year, as much as anything else I don't think his pride would allow him to quite and to be remembered for what happened last season (and I mean that as a compliment). In the past, and certainly last season he has shown that when he is knocked back (for whatever reason) he uses that to motivate himself to come back stronger and 'right whatever wrongs' have happened to him.
If he does come back this season, win the Championship for one last time, I could see him happily hanging up his helmet and moving on to other things as the new record holder.
If he struggles with the new specification cars, if Mercedes fail to provide him with a competitive package and if George blows him into the weeds however, this could also ad weight to his decision to retire.
Either way, it will be an interesting season methinks!

[ascarracinguk]

Lets be honest, Lewis at multiple times last year still showed that hes at the top of his game, despite fighting someone almost half his age.....

...were not talking about some washed up has been here, ive said it before but 2021 proved just how good Lewis is, despite years of people saying he only won because of the car.

Some people are expecting Russell to come in and blow Lewis apart....less than a few months after Lewis proved he had the measure of Max

If Mercedes prove that they can give him a car to win races and another championship theres no reason from a talent point of view to quit.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

If Mercedes prove that they can give him a car to win races and another championship theres no reason from a talent point of view to quit.

The only way to prove a car can win races is to be in the car, winning races. But if you're thinking of quitting based on the fact that the car isn't a race winner before you've raced it...

Originally Posted by John Yossarian in Catch-22

"That's some catch, that Catch-22," he observed.
"It's the best there is," Doc Daneeka agreed.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Greem

The only way to prove a car can win races is to be in the car, winning races. But if you're thinking of quitting based on the fact that the car isn't a race winner before you've raced it...

Ok i'll rephrase that, shows potential that it can win races.....i think someone of Lewiss expereince will have a rough idea of where they stand....theres no crystal ball though, you are right.

[crmalcolm]

Obviously it will all come down to the testing.

Hamilton has two sets of pre-season tests before the report into Abu Dhabi is released. He can see how good the car looks, and then if the car is not dominant, quit on the eve of the season - citing the FIA report as the reason.....

[ascarracinguk]

Behave

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I'm just amazed how long Merc were able to dominate for, but then the same could be said for McLaren back in the day. How were they able to walk over other well funded manufacturers and the like so easily, particularly in 88?

Because they literally took the engine supply away from main rival Williams-Honda, instantly rendering Williams hopelessly uncompetitive? How can you forget that one!

[Bump Pass]

He's probably already quit, Mercedes are just waiting for the report to use as reasoning

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Skam85

Were Mercedes handed the big advantage or did they just do better than everyone else at developing a hybrid engine though?

Either way, it doesn't matter. In 2014, the Red Bull and Mercedes chassis probably weren't too far apart but Renault didn't do a very good job so reigning champions Vettel and Ricciardo were likely handicapped by a deficit of well over 50 horsepower, possibly even some 75+ horsepower in arrears.

For whatever reason, despite enjoying and thriving on competition from Red Bull, Wolff did not sign the approval for the contractually-unbound Red Bull to be supplied Mercedes customer power units from 2016 onwards such that developments from Mercedes HPP would benefit Mercedes GP and Red Bull Racing equally for the good of Formula One.

Originally Posted by Bump Pass

This just smacks of he can't stand losing and he's having a tantrum.

It seems that way. In 2015, Wolff and Mercedes HPP deciding to sign Manor Racing as a customer, who were unable to even pay for their power units and soon went bankrupt during the 2016 season, in preference to signing Red Bull Racing - a well funded outfit who pays their bills on time - seemed a bizarre and almost cynical ploy...

Renault were still a long way behind on power in 2016, 2017 & 2018 and Honda somewhat behind in 2019 & 2020, so Formula One could have been a lot more exciting with competition between Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull - Mercedes from 2016 to 2021.

Mr. Ricciardo would likely have a lot more race wins to his name in a Red Bull - Mercedes and must be most miffed about it! Particularly, with Mercedes GP itself also preferring to sign Mr. Bottas instead of Mr. Ricciardo too, despite Bottas ultimately managing less wins over 5 seasons than Rosberg managed in just one... You'd think Mercedes GP would have keen to replace Bottas with a driver of potentially the same calibre as previous driver Rosberg, and Ricciardo would have been a good candidate for that??!!

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Either way, it doesn't matter. In 2014, the Red Bull and Mercedes chassis probably weren't too far apart but Renault didn't do a very good job so reigning champions Vettel and Ricciardo were likely handicapped by a deficit of well over 50 horsepower, possibly even some 75+ horsepower in arrears.

For whatever reason, despite enjoying and thriving on competition from Red Bull, Wolff did not sign the approval for the contractually-unbound Red Bull to be supplied Mercedes customer power units from 2016 onwards such that developments from Mercedes HPP would benefit Mercedes GP and Red Bull Racing equally for the good of Formula One.

It does matter, one statment implies an unfair advantage, the other just means you did a better job than your rivals....thats the whole point of F1...to be the best.

Why would you give your main competitor an advantage? same as Ferrari wouldnt supply Red Bull and the same as many manufacturers or manufacturer teams over the years not wanting to give their rivals a 'free leg up'.

This isnt your school egg and spoon race or a charity, its a competative sport.

Do you honestly think that Red Bull would return the favour? id hardly think so....and despite them saying during 'lawyergate' at the final race, stating they are a race team and dont need lawyers, Red Bull are currently in court stopping key staff from starting at Aston Martin....for fear of competition.

Its ironic you have a lotus badge as your avatar, if any team in the history of F1 has innovated the most its Lotus....do you think they just gave that technology away for free to increase competition? hell no, they sat on it and let others work it out, and in the mean time lapped up the wins and championships.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

if any team in the history of F1 has innovated the most its Lotus....do you think they just gave that technology away for free to increase competition?

Chapman deliberately permitted structurally-integral Cosworth Ford DFV engines to be sold to other teams, shunning exclusive use of Duckworth's design for the good of the sport.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Chapman deliberately permitted structurally-integral Cosworth Ford DFV engines to be sold to other teams, shunning exclusive use of Duckworth's design for the good of the sport.

While Chapman allowed the use of the DFV it was for fear that the competition had no chance to compete and would be scared away from F1 while it was in its fragile state following engine rule changes. F1 is in a far different condition in 2014 with 3 strong engine suppliers, multiple manufacturers etc.


Mercedes owns there own engines, Lotus didnt, they were a third party, it wasnt Champmans design or intellectual property.

If you want to use a comparable example did he hand over plans for the space frame, ground effects cars? no, other teams had to find out how to do it and catch up.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Chapman deliberately permitted structurally-integral Cosworth Ford DFV engines to be sold to other teams, shunning exclusive use of Duckworth's design for the good of the sport.

As you say, it was Duckworth's design, and I would assume that Cosworth or Ford Motor Co had the IP to the concept and not Chapman. If so, they would probably have wanted to sell as many units as possible to recoup on their investment.

And I find that I cannot agree with some of your points, either. For example, one of the main stumbling blocks that Red Bull had with Renault unit from the very start was the very tight packaging that Red Bull created which caused multiple problems which stemmed from overheating of some of the elements of the unit. That meant that Renault couldn't maximise the output to it's fullest, so it's no wonder that they were"underpowered" compared to both Mercedes and Ferrari. That wasn't Mercedes' fault.

As far as the driver choice is concerned, Mercedes came to a decision, either before or when, Rosberg retired that the headaches caused by having two number one drivers wasn't in their best interests. Therefore, why create a potential problem by not choosing a number two pilot, such as Bottas. I would imagine that with Russell coming onboard that certain perimeters have been set down, but I would assume that they have taken a certain amount of risk because they can see the potential in Russell and they want him as a successor to Hamilton for when he retires.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

How has be brought the sport into disrepute?

I thought guilt was determined by evidence, since none has been presented, guilt hasn’t been determined and Toto hasn’t been charged by the FIA i suggest you are talking utter nonsense

Seriously!

On his car radio, Hamilton claimed the race was rigged.
Wolf called an end of season press conference claiming he and Hamilton had no confidence in the officiating and calling for Masi's replacement.

Try that in any other professional sport, EPL, NBA, NFL, Cricket, Rugby League, Rugby Union, and find out what happens to you.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by wnut

Seriously!

On his car radio, Hamilton claimed the race was rigged.
Wolf called an end of season press conference claiming he and Hamilton had no confidence in the officiating and calling for Masi's replacement.

Try that in any other professional sport, EPL, NBA, NFL, Cricket, Rugby League, Rugby Union, and find out what happens to you.

Not to mention boycotting contractual obligations

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by E.B

Not to mention boycotting contractual obligations

The FIA should definitely throw the book at Hamilton and Mercedes (they can always just make some rule up if required). Then Mercedes can walk away from the sport together with their engines and everyone will have got what they deserve.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by wnut

Seriously!

On his car radio, Hamilton claimed the race was rigged.
Wolf called an end of season press conference claiming he and Hamilton had no confidence in the officiating and calling for Masi's replacement.

Try that in any other professional sport, EPL, NBA, NFL, Cricket, Rugby League, Rugby Union, and find out what happens to you.

He made a comment that the race was being manipulated, in the heat of the moment.

Has Toto actually called for Masi to be replaced? i must have missed that interview, but if you can post the link it would be appreciated.

So again, i ask how this is bringing the sport into disrepute, its no worse than comments or actions from Horner and Max in silverstone or Saudi, especially Saudi where they questioned Masi

I dont remember you claiming that they brought the sport into disrepute

You mention other sports, when do the rules get changed mid game to massively advantage one team over another?

Often in other sports when the referee has made a mistake, they apologise or are often removed from a game/ demoted to a lower league plus you have CAS to be able to appeal to...in F1 that hasnt happened.

Youre comparing 2 completely different things.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

He made a comment that the race was being manipulated, in the heat of the moment.

Has Toto actually called for Masi to be replaced? i must have missed that interview, but if you can post the link it would be appreciated.

So again, i ask how this is bringing the sport into disrepute, its no worse than comments or actions from Horner and Max in silverstone or Saudi, especially Saudi where they questioned Masi

I dont remember you claiming that they brought the sport into disrepute

You mention other sports, when do the rules get changed mid game to massively advantage one team over another?

Often in other sports when the referee has made a mistake, they apologise or are often removed from a game/ demoted to a lower league plus you have CAS to be able to appeal to...in F1 that hasnt happened.

Youre comparing 2 completely different things.

Again, try and abuse the officials in any of the professional sports mentioned above in the heat of the moment and there will be severe consequences, so that is not an excuse.

Links to Mercedes officials and reports of them calling for Masi's head.

“In the past month, many of Wolff’s attacks have targeted Michael Masi. The FIA Race Director has been linked to losing his position for weeks. But Wolff halted his recent ground attacks to spearhead industry reform.
“I’m not interested in having a conversation with Michael Masi,” Wolff told motorsport.com.
Despite his cries of preferential treatment and end-of-season protests, Wolff deflected talk of Mercedes officials seeking Masi’s dismissal.”

https://www.sportscasting.com/toto-w...mula-1-reform/

Masi To Be SACKED To Get Lewis Hamilton Back in 2022!?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlAf--ZNrNA

Mercedes 'agree FIA deal to sack Michael Masi' to avoid Lewis Hamilton taking sabbatical
https://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-a...ews-Toto-Wolff

Lewis Hamilton’s request for the FIA to sack race director Michael Masi is a view shared by a number of drivers on the grid following three notorious calls in 2021.
https://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-a...A-view-F1-news

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by wnut

Again, try and abuse the officials in any of the professional sports mentioned above in the heat of the moment and there will be severe consequences, so that is not an excuse.

Links to Mercedes officials and reports of them calling for Masi's head.

“In the past month, many of Wolff’s attacks have targeted Michael Masi. The FIA Race Director has been linked to losing his position for weeks. But Wolff halted his recent ground attacks to spearhead industry reform.
“I’m not interested in having a conversation with Michael Masi,” Wolff told motorsport.com.
Despite his cries of preferential treatment and end-of-season protests, Wolff deflected talk of Mercedes officials seeking Masi’s dismissal.”

https://www.sportscasting.com/toto-w...mula-1-reform/

Masi To Be SACKED To Get Lewis Hamilton Back in 2022!?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlAf--ZNrNA

Mercedes 'agree FIA deal to sack Michael Masi' to avoid Lewis Hamilton taking sabbatical
https://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-a...ews-Toto-Wolff

Lewis Hamilton’s request for the FIA to sack race director Michael Masi is a view shared by a number of drivers on the grid following three notorious calls in 2021.
https://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-a...A-view-F1-news

So Lewis hasnt said anything about Masi publically, so anything you draw from that is pure rumours. Its funny though because if we are to take your links as the truth then Hamiltons view is shared by other drivers.....where is your ire about those drivers bringing the sport into disrepute?

Toto and Mercedes havent said anything publically about sacking Masi, so its all pure rumours. Using the Express as a reliable souce doesnt do anything to back up your stance, its toilet paper.

Youre basing your attack on Mercedes and assumption that they have brought the sport into disrepute on rumours and not words that have come from Toto or Lewiss mouth.

Where in his end of season press conference did Toto call for Masi to be replaced? you still havent given me that link...

So again, i ask, provide hard proof that they have bought the sport into disrepute...like actual words from Totos mouth, as you claimed above.

[S griffin]

The fact is there has been a lot of criticism from many quarters, not just Merc, about what happened at the last round. That’s why the FIA are investigating it and are considering a rule change. I can’t see anything Merc has said that has been worse than what other people unhappy with Masi’s decision have