McLaren have a further four-week wait/McLaren apology - Page 5

henk4 · 21 Dec 2007, 08:32 (Ref:2093203)

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

Stepney is already writing that book.

I am sure that will be the unauthorised version.

Red · 21 Dec 2007, 09:00 (Ref:2093210)

Quote:

Originally Posted by davyboy

This following was a statement made by Montezemolo :

" The English never miss a chance to demonstrate their lack of sportsmanship. "

No amount of context can justify this. Its tarnishes the entire nation of England, a country where Ferrari make a large percentage of their sales and where they have a loyal fan base, and has got nothing to do with what McLaren did or did not do.

It really doesn't have anything to do with McLaren. Really. It does however have something to do with Autosport awards (McLaren - the racing car of the year) and yes, this context does justify the comment. The full quote is "The English never miss a chance to demonstrate their lack of sportsmanship. The best car is the one that wins, and that's the Ferrari."

**Peter Mallett** · 21 Dec 2007, 09:03 (Ref:2093211)

Quote:

Originally Posted by climb

dog poo? Hitler?

now .. who are the sore losers ? :blah:

@ climb, I was referring to the situation, not the comments.

**Born Racer** · 21 Dec 2007, 09:22 (Ref:2093220)

Quote:

The full quote is "The English never miss a chance to demonstrate their lack of sportsmanship. The best car is the one that wins, and that's the Ferrari."

The best car isn't necessarily the one that wins. McLaren arguably had the best car overall this year, and stuffed things up towards the end of the year, such as in China where they should've called Hamilton in for new tyres.

And if indeed it is a popularity vote, and people went for McLaren, well boo-hoo, it's only the Autosport Awards. Ferrari have the world championship. What more do they want? Humiliation of McLaren it seems. Where's the grace?

And to say this demonstrates a lack of sportsmanship on the part of the English, is frankly insulting.

I'm not lying when I say this comment of di Montezemolo's doesn't wind me up.

I just think it's very sad. Sad that he resorts to saying such things. He only makes himself look foolish.

henk4 · 21 Dec 2007, 09:49 (Ref:2093225)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Born Racer

The best car isn't necessarily the one that wins. McLaren arguably had the best car overall this year, and stuffed things up towards the end of the year, such as in China where they should've called Hamilton in for new tyres.

just for the record, Ferrari won nine races this year, McLaren eight, so even if mr De M had an unfortunate choice of words, he is not too far away from the truth as you seem to indicate...

Ralf's Girl · 21 Dec 2007, 10:26 (Ref:2093243)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red

It does however have something to do with Autosport awards (McLaren - the racing car of the year) and yes, this context does justify the comment. The full quote is "The English never miss a chance to demonstrate their lack of sportsmanship. The best car is the one that wins, and that's the Ferrari."

Erm...how does that context justify the comment? How exactly does McLaren winning an Autosport award make everybody in England unsporting? It's a ridiculous comment to make, and any ordinary person would be ashamed of themselves, but I don't think di Montezemolo has any shame.

**Born Racer** · 21 Dec 2007, 10:31 (Ref:2093246)

I didn't say he was far away from the truth. I'm saying that if we are talking about performance, then of course you can debate whether the Ferrari was the best car. Just as it's possible to reckon that Hamilton is a more talented driver than Raikkonen.

That doesn't take away the fact that he has insulted English people with his unacceptable remarks.

phoenix · 21 Dec 2007, 10:35 (Ref:2093248)

Quote:

Originally Posted by henk4

just for the record, Ferrari won nine races this year, McLaren eight, so even if mr De M had an unfortunate choice of words, he is not too far away from the truth as you seem to indicate...

And McLaren threw one away so it could just have easily been 9 to McLaren and 8 to Ferrari...

Surely no-one would claim that the result in China was about a Ferrari being a better car than a McLaren.

**Peter Mallett** · 21 Dec 2007, 10:42 (Ref:2093252)

Whatever. Di motezemolu was wrong. It was the British not the English. Can't even get a simple thing like nationality right.

davyboy · 21 Dec 2007, 10:43 (Ref:2093253)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red

It really doesn't have anything to do with McLaren. Really. It does however have something to do with Autosport awards (McLaren - the racing car of the year) and yes, this context does justify the comment. The full quote is "The English never miss a chance to demonstrate their lack of sportsmanship. The best car is the one that wins, and that's the Ferrari."

I'm sorry. Montezemolo's statement is quite clear. It tarnishes the people of the nation of England. He cites that they "never miss a chance to demonstrate their lack of sportsmanship". He didn't say McLaren, he didn't say the Autosport awards adjudicators, he said "The English". Now he may have meant something different, but if he did... the connection between his brain and his mouth wasn't working at that moment, because that's not what he said.

Its not the first derogatory comment Montezemolo has made this year and while one soundbite could be forgiven for being a gaffe... they're now starting to become more vile. Will his next one be some full-on racist slur ? What if he does stoop that low ? Will we still continue to find reasons to justify what he's said ?

JohnSSC · 21 Dec 2007, 11:08 (Ref:2093264)

I think we are confusing "race" with "nationality."

If I say: "Americans are obnoxious." I am stating an opinion about the inhabitants of a particular country, not a race of people. Saying "Caucasians are stupid." is a racial slur.

I would further note that Luca does not speak English as his primary language. Was the quote stated in Italian (which would leave it to the tender mercies of a translator) or English? Either way, I think you might find that many people, including those who should know better, often use "British" and "English" interchangeably, despite the utter simplicity of it all.

davyboy · 21 Dec 2007, 12:01 (Ref:2093288)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

I think we are confusing "race" with "nationality."

If I say: "Americans are obnoxious." I am stating an opinion about the inhabitants of a particular country, not a race of people. Saying "Caucasians are stupid." is a racial slur.

I would further note that Luca does not speak English as his primary language. Was the quote stated in Italian (which would leave it to the tender mercies of a translator) or English? Either way, I think you might find that many people, including those who should know better, often use "British" and "English" interchangeably, despite the utter simplicity of it all.

While I personally wouldn't view what Montezemolo said as racist, I would still see it as highly offensive to English people.

If you go by the strict definition of 'race', you'll find that a nation of people is actually classified as a race. In this case the English people can be referred to as the 'English race'. See below from Merriam Webster on-line

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merriam Webster

Main Entry: 3race
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, generation, from Old Italian razza
Date: 1580
1: a breeding stock of animals
2 a: a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock b: a class or kind of people unified by shared interests, habits, or characteristics
3 a: an actually or potentially interbreeding group within a species; also : a taxonomic category (as a subspecies) representing such a group b: breed c: a category of humankind that shares certain distinctive physical traits
4obsolete : inherited temperament or disposition
5: distinctive flavor, taste, or strength

I think this has deviated quite a bit off the point though... which was that Montezemolo made an offensive remark that's hard, if not impossible, to justify.

climb · 21 Dec 2007, 13:19 (Ref:2093333)

What a mess for nothing....

-LdM surely didn't refer to the whole English people; it doesn't take a genius to analyse his quote in the right context

-Ferrari won the WDC and WCC, nonetheless an English jury, based on a popular poll within the English fans, unsurprisingly declared an English chassis better than Ferrari

-Ferrari boss unsurprisingly said it's an unfair judgement

....

AND SO WHAT?

Aren't the English fans free to vote for their homecountry leading squad?

Isn't LdM free to say he diasgrees?

Ultimately, via this all-but-nice interview, LdM honoured this Award, telling the motorsport world that Ferrari wanted it so bad.

If I was LdM my reaction would have been: "Who cares?"

henk4 · 21 Dec 2007, 13:23 (Ref:2093339)

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoenix

And McLaren threw one away so it could just have easily been 9 to McLaren and 8 to Ferrari...

Surely no-one would claim that the result in China was about a Ferrari being a better car than a McLaren.

true, but the results stand as they are....we are also not going into minute detail to search for the reasons as to why Ferrari did not win some other races...
I bet if Quattroruote had made a similar survey the Ferrari would have ended on top, but because very few forum members here can read Italian, it would not have caused any uproar...

phoenix · 21 Dec 2007, 13:29 (Ref:2093342)

Quote:

Originally Posted by henk4

true, but the results stand as they are....we are also not going into minute detail to search for the reasons as to why Ferrari did not win some other races...
I bet if Quattroruote had made a similar survey the Ferrari would have ended on top, but because very few forum members here can read Italian, it would not have caused any uproar...

I don't think Hamilton chucking the car off was a minute detail!

Results in the championships don't just reflect the car performance though, do they? There is the performance of the driver and the rest of the team to consider also in winning the championship. The judgement of which car is best or better is a different matter.

I guess what I am saying is they were both great cars with not much performance difference between them. One of the reasons is should have been a great season!

Mystery · 21 Dec 2007, 13:44 (Ref:2093347)

Sigh........I am so glad to have left the whole sorry pathetic category to be consigned to my history. The past few days posts in here have confirmed this to be the right decision for the time being.

I sincerely hope that justice is one day done in terms of the relative punishments upon McLaren and Renault.

And I hope one day team bosses and forum members alike can be spared unpleasant spats like these recently.

No F1 team is angelic and anyone who says otherwise is lying or severely deluded.

henk4 · 21 Dec 2007, 13:52 (Ref:2093351)

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoenix

I don't think Hamilton chucking the car off was a minute detail!

no, that was a blatant team/driver error...some of which may have been committed also by Ferrari when they lost one of the races...
but it may also help to look at the qualifying figures, where Ferrari scored 9 poles and McLaren 8....

phoenix · 21 Dec 2007, 14:24 (Ref:2093364)

Quote:

Originally Posted by henk4

no, that was a blatant team/driver error...some of which may have been committed also by Ferrari when they lost one of the races...
but it may also help to look at the qualifying figures, where Ferrari scored 9 poles and McLaren 8....

Ferrari make mistakes?

How many non-finishes each (without crashes) ?

henk4 · 21 Dec 2007, 14:44 (Ref:2093368)

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoenix

Ferrari make mistakes?

why are you asking that question in such a strange way? Did I ever indicate anywhere that they do not make them? Do you automatically assume that anyone who does question anything about McLaren is a Ferrari fanboy? Mistakes can also be made during pit stops, by driver error etc.....the fact (and ultimate result) remains that a Ferrari won most poles and a Ferrari won most races....whether that is a reason or not to call it the best car of the year is another matter, but it should certainly not be dismissed when calling the McLaren the best car

**Born Racer** · 21 Dec 2007, 15:14 (Ref:2093374)

Quote:

Ferrari boss unsurprisingly said it's an unfair judgement

But it's NOT an unfair judgement! When you have two cars so closely matched, it could go either way. And the vote went McLaren's way. This does not mean that English fans are unsporting. Can you not see this?

Quote:

Aren't the English fans free to vote for their homecountry leading squad?

Yes, indeed.

Quote:

Isn't LdM free to say he diasgrees?

Yes, indeed. But he went further than that and insulted English people for voting McLaren as the car of the year.

Quote:

If I was LdM my reaction would have been: "Who cares?"

A "who cares?" reaction would have been a quite understandable one seeing as Ferrari won both championships in the end. But he chose the moment to be petty and have a very insulting dig at English fans for some reason.

Quote:

One of the reasons is should have been a great season!

It was a great season on track.

phoenix · 21 Dec 2007, 16:00 (Ref:2093392)

Quote:

Originally Posted by henk4

why are you asking that question in such a strange way? Did I ever indicate anywhere that they do not make them? Do you automatically assume that anyone who does question anything about McLaren is a Ferrari fanboy? Mistakes can also be made during pit stops, by driver error etc.....the fact (and ultimate result) remains that a Ferrari won most poles and a Ferrari won most races....whether that is a reason or not to call it the best car of the year is another matter, but it should certainly not be dismissed when calling the McLaren the best car

I simply asked a question - why do you think it was asked in a strange way?

I completely agree with you. I try not to assume anything - my experience of life tells me that assumptions are dangerous to make. Like there is no way of knowing why the voting went in favour of the McLaren. Maybe the voters were influenced by the fact that McLaren didn't have one DNF for mechanical or technical reasons all season and Ferrari had 3 such DNFs - but who knows?

brands · 21 Dec 2007, 16:04 (Ref:2093394)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ralf's Girl

Erm...how does that context justify the comment? How exactly does McLaren winning an Autosport award make everybody in England unsporting? It's a ridiculous comment to make, and any ordinary person would be ashamed of themselves, but I don't think di Montezemolo has any shame.

Agreed.

LdM just trying to stir up as usual, a bad winner as well as a poor loser.

henk4 · 21 Dec 2007, 16:30 (Ref:2093405)

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoenix

I simply asked a question - why do you think it was asked in a strange way?

I completely agree with you. I try not to assume anything - my experience of life tells me that assumptions are dangerous to make. Like there is no way of knowing why the voting went in favour of the McLaren. Maybe the voters were influenced by the fact that McLaren didn't have one DNF for mechanical or technical reasons all season and Ferrari had 3 such DNFs - but who knows?

I liked your unedited reply much better

Super Hans · 21 Dec 2007, 18:43 (Ref:2093468)

Quote:

Originally Posted by phoenix

I completely agree with you. I try not to assume anything - my experience of life tells me that assumptions are dangerous to make. Like there is no way of knowing why the voting went in favour of the McLaren. Maybe the voters were influenced by the fact that McLaren didn't have one DNF for mechanical or technical reasons all season and Ferrari had 3 such DNFs - but who knows?

It's also highly likely that many voted for McLaren because they felt they'd been harshly treated.

henk4 · 21 Dec 2007, 18:48 (Ref:2093472)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Hans

It's also highly likely that many voted for McLaren because they felt they'd been harshly treated.

and the voting took place before the infamous apology letter

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