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16 Aug 2005, 14:21 (Ref:1383670) | #1 | ||
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article on ff1600 web site re: grids
This is an interesting article tackling a difficult problem to solve. One suggestion was to encourage drivers from Combe and Oulton to travel to other circuits. While a nice idea, I doubt it would be sustainable on a consistent basis, and maybe suggests that the majority of cars & drivers are within a reasonable distance from those two circuits. Is this the case though? What are the comparitive numbers for how many cars/drivers exist in the north-east & west, to those in the east and south-east?? If the latter areas have similar numbers, then unfortunately I feel the drivers have themselves to blame and thus the weak series' should be left to die. The incentives for the MSV series are very good yet still the grids are pitiful (I'm talking numbers, not my driving ability! )
From a personal perspective, the small grids I have joined this year haven't been an issue to me because I'm just an old bloke learning the car and circuits, but next year, if the situation is similar, I will either race at Oulton as often as possible, or change to a different formula such as Classic FF or FF2000. |
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16 Aug 2005, 14:43 (Ref:1383689) | #2 | ||
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As per usual, I couldn't just read the article. I had to pass comment.
My reply to Matt: Morning Matt. Just had a read of your article. you know me by know. Had to write something in reply! I agree entirely with what you are saying and I would love to attend more races across the country, but you have to bare in mind several factors that restrict this. I enjoy my racing as much as the next driver and hope to continue to do so for many years to come, but I am a Clubbie and my racing is a hobby. As a hobby, it has to be fun and it has to be cost effective. It also has to be kept in context with regards to the allocation of my time. As well as a part time racing driver (some might say!), I have a career, a family and a home. All have to be finely balanced so as not to intrude into the other. I am probably one of the more fortunate drivers in respect that my family thoroughly enjoy coming to the meetings to help out, watch and meet all there friends they have made over the years. Preparing the car myself takes time and involves many nights in the garage. If I didn't have to work and had the time (like some of the teams that travel the country) to devote to preparing a car full time, then we may be in a position to travel a little more ie less time spent on the car of an evening means more time with the family during the week. But as I said, although my family enjoy the racing, would it really be fair to drag them all over the country each weekend in the pursuit of what is in essence, my hobby? Another factor is cost. a typical race day at Oulton barring any major problems would run to around £250 with race entry and consumables. This is by no means a stretch to many people racing, but add to that, tyres over a season, the odd test day, memberships, engine build, damage repairs, it soon mounts up. Now throw into that, the added cost of travelling, say from Manchester to Brands Hatch. Extra fuel, overnight accommodation, meals, plus extras. And this would be on top off a regular Championship year. This adds a considerable amount to your budget. One other aspect of the cost also is when you run into problems. I have witnessed some of the more well funded drivers at some of these events, carry practically a full car in spares, from engines to wishbones. Any problem is easily overcome with a quick rebuild of a corner or replacement of an engine by an army of mechanics. If I drive all the way to Brands Hatch and have a fairly major engine problem, that's the end of the day/weekend for me. Apart from only running on a trailer and having no place to carry a spare engine, I don't have one! Now, I know you can say "but you don't go into a race thinking the engine is going to break" and I agree. Most of the people that know me will tell you I have the attitude, don't worry until you have to, but I have a local circuit, a very good one. I can race there frequently and if I have problems, it's 40 minutes from home. So, why would I want to go all the way down to Brands Hatch when I can race on an equally challenging circuit at Oulton Park? I know, I am rambling a bit and I can hear myself doing it, but the one factor that a great number of people fail to realise, both at driving level and organising levels is the re-birth of Formula Ford is down to some very key factors. 1) In race car terms, you can pick the cars up for nothing. You can have a thoroughbred race car for £5000 and go and race it at a proper racing circuit. and 2) Because they are cheap, it enables people with modest budgets to race them competitively as a Clubbie at a local circuit. Not interested in travelling the country in pursuit of a hobby. Why? When there is a thoroughly good facility just down the road and they can have all day having fun and still be home in time for tea. These factors alone should spell out to the organisers the criteria for keeping the cost of racing the 1600's as low as possible. There is a footballing term, "Play to your strengths".............. Formula Ford 1600 works for this very reason and the only reason you have to raise the point you have, is because the powers that be have got greedy. The likes of the MSV Championship has seen a way of exploiting a popular Formula. This is guilty of diluting the grids in several Championships and whilst you can argue it is good value, for how long? I would hazard a guess that Mr JP is using it as a loss leader this year in an attempt to attract more drivers, but if it doesn't happen next year, what will entry fees become? Or will the BRSCC have to bolster it by charging more at the Regional meetings? Look at the number of extra events per year that have appeared. This is not solely for the benefit of the drivers, it is for the people that make money out of racing. The powers that be are responsible for diluting grids across the country, not the drivers, Yet everything seems to be aimed at the drivers. Lend your support to this, or that event has been arranged for you. Be there. We are not professional racing drivers! We are Clubbie's and as soon as the organisers of these events realise we do not have bottomless pockets, then things can and need to stabilise. With the exception of a handful of teams, you tell me how many people actually make money out of Formula Ford 1600? Don't get me wrong, I think the BRSCC has come on leaps and bounds in the last couple of years, but when you consider a couple of years ago, they had grids at Oulton of 15 cars per race and they now have over 60, there is a lot of extra revenue coming in. Are we going to get cheaper entries next year as a consequence of this. In fact, cheaper entry fees may spur people to travel a little more. As a rough work out in my head, with the other categories racing at Oulton on the 30th of July (5 in total I believe), the Formula Fords paid almost half of the circuit hire fees alone....... I'll leave it at that now I think Matt as I am getting looks at work as to why I am writing a novel!!!!! But in closing, things should not be aimed at the drivers in all of this. The reason I first got into Formula Ford is because I saw it as a way of racing a proper single seater at a local track for sensible money. It wouldn't consume my time too much and I could, for want of a better phrase, get away with it as I could incorporate it into my life rather than it consume my life. This is all I ever asked for and it is all I ever wanted. And I dare say there are a large majority of drivers who think the same way. Formula Ford 1600 needs it's Clubbies for it's survival. |
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16 Aug 2005, 14:50 (Ref:1383698) | #3 | ||
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well said Chris
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16 Aug 2005, 16:37 (Ref:1383806) | #4 | |||||
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Plus you will be missed from the grid on Saturday. Holiday in the season. Ye Gods man, get your life sorted and quick. |
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16 Aug 2005, 20:55 (Ref:1384040) | #5 | ||
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Well said Chris, the NW series has grown from strength to strength because thats exactly what it is.... a NW series and has a sensible ammount of rounds,,i hope no ones wives are looking over their shoulders because,i worked out with "he who doesnt post" that each event if you test,tyres ,fuel ,entry,membership,engine wear,pads,maintenance,and then kid yourself , costs about £750 a meeting,more if you pay for help and accelerates past £1500 if you have a team run you. People that dont race forget the sacrifice in time and money racers make.
Visiting other circuits is vital if you want to get better ,but including them into a championship that by definition is NW based is very unpopular , and costs most a damn site more that the regular NW rounds,take this years Croft round,a double header at the end of the season,means you have to go if your in the championship, great circuit but it aint in the north west and the entry fee revenue doesnt even go to BRSCC! The NW BRSCC team work very hard and it must be like a kick in the teeth for their series to go elsewhere. Midlands series started to visit various circuits a couple of years ago,i remember seeing a sponsors sticker saying something like "visits 6 circuits at 15 rounds" that is what killed it.... the spiraling cost. We now have the annual Diz world tour vote (democracy doesnt work in racing Diz!)....look at the disgrace that is "Driver of the month" Dempsy hasnt won it once!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.............and smart ar$ed wannabe journos who dont understand what is involved in going racing because they havent tried,trying to tell drivers where to race! The self appointed "experts" have in a very sort time become far too influential. Keep the NW championship in the NW! |
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16 Aug 2005, 21:13 (Ref:1384065) | #6 | |
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Spot on Dave we should stick to Oulton and Anglesey as it is.I do not see any need to change a good thing.
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16 Aug 2005, 22:28 (Ref:1384086) | #7 | |||
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what a crappy way to express your view
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the editoral is meant to make people thing and cause debate, and it is expressing the view of one of the sites editors as a talking point, which judging by your reponses (sensible reponse from Chris) it has. I'm not sure I agree fully myself with the suggestion that it is a drivers "responsability" to travel and support other championships, but I agree with the thought that it would be nice that if people had time/budget to travel and participate in other races it would be nice. I can honestly say that 3 of my worst racing experiences have been 3 of my most fun days out, simpley because it was something new, and a great event. I couldn't do that every other weekend as you rightly mentioned I don't have the time/money to attend every race in every championship that I would like to. Hell, I'd be out every weekend if I could, but the thought behind supporting the other championships is good. If you disagree that strongly which you obviously do, respond to the editor type a good email (try to lay off the insults) and get your reponse on the site as a drivers response, I'm sure other drivers feel the same way as you, and its important to get a balanced view. while I agree that the NW championship is running strong and it would be harsh for drivers to dissapear and leave the championship weak, it should also be remembered that this months race is suffering a slightly poor entry (in comparison) in some part down to a lack of visiting drivers - and a few of the numbers are still made up by visiting drivers, if you took all the visting drivers out of the field of this months race you'd be down to about 20 (roughly) and your not a million miles away from the SOM entry which is struggling at the moment. as for the driver of the month - well, its a shame that peters not won it, but there must be something he can't win at the moment, perhaps his regular winning puts his achievments in shade as its "what you expect". Vote for the guy, I know I've neglected to vote for him a few times as say 3 wins in a month is nothing special for him on current form, where as someone taking his first pole and a 2 hard fought 3rd places stuck out to me more. |
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16 Aug 2005, 22:39 (Ref:1384090) | #8 | |||
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Just one idea of many that spend their time floating around Diz's mind is the North / South divide. This would solve the SOM and MSV problems in one fell swoop. What is wrong with a Northern Championship at Anglesey, Cadwell Park, Croft, Donington Park, Kirkistown, Knockhill, Mallory Park, Mondello Park and Oulton Park. And a Southern Championship at Lydden Hill, Brands Hatch, Thruxton, Pembrey, Castle Combe, Rockingham and Silverstone. Make them 20 to 24 rounds each, but only 15 can be nominated to score points in and only 12 rounds can be counted. That way, drivers can select their own geographical areas to race in, giving them CHOICE and opportunity for all this, much vaunted, quality family time they all deem so important. A NW regulars can stick to Oulton and Anglesey if they wish, but a NE driver [potential drivers would be persuaded out of the woodwork and dust sheet covered FF1600s' would reappear] might be tempted to do say Cadwell, Croft and Knockhill. The NW driver may decide to make an odd foray East and a NE driver likewise may do the odd Western race. The same would apply for Midlands based drivers racing above and below the divide and the Brands lot may go west occasionally and Combers could stop being one circuit drivers and take in Pembrey, or Thruxton, or Silverstone, or wherever. This is THE answer. Give drivers a good choice of venues and dates and they will reappear. Give them a restriction of say Combe only, or Oulton and Anglesey only and it might not be when and where they would prefer to race. OK, so Oulton and Combe entries may fall slightly, but entries at all the other venues would increase and FF1600 would almost guarantee a two dozen plus entry, wherever it was programmed to appear. Oh and the clubs would need to talk to and work with each other a bit more. |
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16 Aug 2005, 22:44 (Ref:1384092) | #9 | |||
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thats rubbish Diz and it wouldn't work. You could get 2 drivers fighting for the championship and they may never race each other. The above idea is the best way to self destruct FF1600 |
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16 Aug 2005, 22:48 (Ref:1384095) | #10 | ||||
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Did you buy that car tonight? |
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16 Aug 2005, 22:54 (Ref:1384101) | #11 | ||
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what you will end up with is busy OP rounds and 2 or 3 entries to Mallory Park and Cadwell. If you can't get entires to Cadwell Park with prize money and cheap entry for double headers why would next year be any different.....
Didn't buy the car Diz as the BMW broke down on Saddleworth Moor on the way to Dave Browns to have a look...... I am taking Sugar Rays car for a drive this weekend instead. |
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16 Aug 2005, 22:57 (Ref:1384105) | #12 | ||
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PS by the way the BRSCC must be short of money as I had to pay £1.20 to get my newsletter this week as it was under stamped....
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16 Aug 2005, 23:31 (Ref:1384132) | #13 | ||
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Me too.
My next race entry fee will be £173.80 to reimburse me....... |
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A new Middle East Crisis erupted last night as Dubai TV refused to broadcast 'The Flintstones'. A spokesman said, "Dubai citizens wouldn't understand the humour, but those in Abu Dhabi Do!". |
16 Aug 2005, 23:33 (Ref:1384134) | #14 | |||
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Camping is something else at Anglesey though isn't it Diz. I can't see Tracy being too chuffed about a Tent at the back of Brands Paddock. Holiday booked before the season start. School boy error and one that won't be repeated..... |
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A new Middle East Crisis erupted last night as Dubai TV refused to broadcast 'The Flintstones'. A spokesman said, "Dubai citizens wouldn't understand the humour, but those in Abu Dhabi Do!". |
16 Aug 2005, 23:41 (Ref:1384138) | #15 | |||
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16 Aug 2005, 23:55 (Ref:1384149) | #16 | |||||
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Do you not class family time as important??????? Don't even joke that my attitude to racing is wrong. It is one hobby as a privateer you cannot do unless you are commited to it. I fully enjoy my racing and would love to be doing it in 30 years time, but the family is more important. If they aren't happy, then I'm not. As I said before, most drivers families, for want of a better word, tolerate our crazy hobby and as soon as we start upsetting them, they can stop tolerating it. It's not tit for tat, but you know what I'm trying to say! Quote:
Listen, I worked out my racing budget in comparison to what a mate of mine smokes and drinks in a year. He spent as much. Another mate spends as much playing golf? We all earn around the same, but how we choose to spend it is different. What we did realise between us is you only have so much disposable income and that puts up barriers. If I had more and I could afford a team to run my car, I'd be out a lot more, but I don't, so I can't and to get the most out of my budget and time, I choose to race at Oulton, with the Anglesey/Croft and hopefully Walter Hayes thrown in as a few extras.... The clubs do need to work more closely together. I can't see a reason for not having motorsport under one banner, but that's another story. Anyway Mr Diz. Enough winding me up for one night. Or you might just find the Moose Unit on bricks in the morning...... |
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A new Middle East Crisis erupted last night as Dubai TV refused to broadcast 'The Flintstones'. A spokesman said, "Dubai citizens wouldn't understand the humour, but those in Abu Dhabi Do!". |
16 Aug 2005, 23:56 (Ref:1384150) | #17 | |||
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Because by then, FF1600 owners in the NE would have heard they would have a 'local' calendar to pick and choose from and the dust sheets would start coming off and more cars would be prepared and so it goes. You can't just think "todays drivers". Some of the current crop will get bored, disillusioned, skint, married, divorced, made redundant, start a new business, get too old, realise they can't drive a greasy pole up a dogs arse, etc. and move away to pastures new. They will br replaced, they always are. At present they will be replaced by drivers with only the same calendar as an option. |
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17 Aug 2005, 08:21 (Ref:1384371) | #18 | ||
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Walshy, Cadwell is closer than Anglesey but is still not North West so shouldn't be included
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17 Aug 2005, 09:17 (Ref:1384421) | #19 | |||
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Don't forget the UK is long and narrow so how about three championships a Northern, Midland and a Southern |
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17 Aug 2005, 09:32 (Ref:1384432) | #20 | ||
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Seriously, I think that all championship fluctuate for various reasons, the SOM had very healthy grids then it died down picked up again a few years ago and has again reduced, without changing anything it could be back to 20 plus cars next year. It could well be that money is tighter in the south east with the highr cost of living, how many drivers live in London, not many?
My feeling is that as time and money is so precious to most of us that only a few are willing to travel to race, Mallory from my home is 1 hour 45 minutes, Oulton 3 plus so I am prepared to race at MP but OP is too far to do it regularly, as it would mean nights aay adding costs and taking holidays. I would like to see the SOM be based at MP with the occassional visit to one other circuit, my ideal choice would be Silverstone. And feel the MSV should only be a southern championship, perhaps incoparating MP with a stand alone championships for Brands and Mallory as "Stars of ...." for those who only wish to race at one circuit regularly. |
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17 Aug 2005, 10:10 (Ref:1384457) | #21 | |||
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I've just saved myself a 20 mile drive and £1.20 and have chucked the card from the Royal Mail in the bin. |
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17 Aug 2005, 13:09 (Ref:1384626) | #22 | ||
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Going back to the original thread , one of the reasons the NW have such good overall grid is beacause they have a well supported pre 90 category . None of the other regions do . There is , as far as I know nowhere else for 1982-1989 F Fords to race and compete with similar aged machinery in decent numbers. Most who race at Oulton/Anglesy in these cars are the clubbie type with limited budgets , time etc and can get their regular racing fix in at the 2 main circuits . Judging by the entry numbers this is a successful format so I can't see why people want to change things. If the championship went to more circuits around the country you might draw in a few at the more competitive end of the post 90 class but I think you would lose many more elsewhere . Didn't the Superclassic F Ford try to offer national racing for 1980's F Fords , and that packed up from lack of support.
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17 Aug 2005, 14:43 (Ref:1384697) | #23 | |||
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For July the candidates were Peter Dempsey (who??), Noel Dunne, Jonny Lang, Andy Meyrick and Greg Thornton |
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17 Aug 2005, 14:50 (Ref:1384706) | #24 | ||
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WildMan, Superclassic died as you saidbut it did have a few good years when it was just for pre'90 cars, but I think what killed it was that for there was not enough people who where prepared to travel on a regular basis the length of the country year after year. The grids were boosted by locals at MP, BH & OP but with there knowledge of "their" track then usualy trounced the visitors!
Which only goes some way to proving that most will not or cannot travel too far to compete. |
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17 Aug 2005, 15:56 (Ref:1384758) | #25 | |||
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"Racing is Life. Anything before or after is just waiting" |
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