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Old 9 Dec 2003, 10:57 (Ref:807362)   #26
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Originally posted by Duffacus
Its stupid though, why do they have to punish a GT car just so one of their "fabulous DP's" can get the victory?
Thats easy ..... its because they know full well that a GT car will take the glory again and that would make their wonderful DP's look kinda ridiculous !!! If I was Porsche I would ban the use of their engine in a DP ..... Sauce for the goose is sauce for gander after all
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Old 9 Dec 2003, 11:04 (Ref:807365)   #27
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Originally posted by Patrick B
This was news 6 months ago. It has allready been implemented 3 months ago.

You guys just don't seem to get it. GrandAm's GT class has nothing to do with the ACO GT class. GA wants to have a GT class between the ACO GT level and GA's old GSI class.

The GSI class had 16 Gallon tanks. GA's new GT class(SGS) is made up of the GSI cars. Why they hell wouldn't they use a 16 gallon tank?

If Buckler wants to race in GA hes going to have to meet GA's own rules. Why should GA bend backwords for some ALMS teams that only run Daytona???
Why is it that again we cant have rule stability in sportscar racing and I believe that Grand-Am is just power playing . What could be better than having the same or simelar rules for sportscar racing ? That way teams could play in both parks . I dont think that GA should bend over backwards but I do feel that a little more cooperation from them would be in order . Look back at the IMSA series in the 80's , that was a great series and you could change your car's spec without to much hastle . Take a look at CART and the IRL . They prove that two open seater championships on the same continent cant survive . Whats going to go then , ALMS or GA ? Its only a metter of time I sadly feel .
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Old 9 Dec 2003, 11:32 (Ref:807379)   #28
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cybersdorf should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridcybersdorf should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Originally posted by gttouring
edit: no autocensor dodges, please. - p-c
What's a Dodge Autocensor, never heard of that one
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Old 9 Dec 2003, 13:05 (Ref:807435)   #29
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Hang on though - the criticisms above about hyping this issue would be more valid if the fuel tank changes hadn't been introduced after the season had started.

If GA want to redefine one or more of their classes that's fine - Just do it at the end of the previous season before teams start spending the money.
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Old 9 Dec 2003, 13:30 (Ref:807458)   #30
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I'm deserving a warning that I'll give to myself for opening this thread... oh my ! Moron am I !!!

Next time I'll focus on "wine and food" for TT meeting...

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Old 9 Dec 2003, 13:45 (Ref:807475)   #31
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Originally posted by Graham Goodwin
Hang on though - the criticisms above about hyping this issue would be more valid if the fuel tank changes hadn't been introduced after the season had started.

If GA want to redefine one or more of their classes that's fine - Just do it at the end of the previous season before teams start spending the money.
I completely agree with you Graham . The cost of a new RSR is a lot to a team especially given the currant economic trend . Its hard enough to get the money for this but when people start moving the goalposts its a bit unfair .
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Old 9 Dec 2003, 13:46 (Ref:807476)   #32
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cybersdorf should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridcybersdorf should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
No, GrandAm has every right to implement such performance adjusting measures. This is fine-tuning the regulations for the good of everybody involved what clearly is the formula of the future. We Europeans lack the insight into American racing to realise this.
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Old 9 Dec 2003, 14:18 (Ref:807503)   #33
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No, GrandAm has every right to implement such performance adjusting measures. This is fine-tuning the regulations for the good of everybody involved what clearly is the formula of the future. We Europeans lack the insight into American racing to realise this.
!!!

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Old 9 Dec 2003, 14:29 (Ref:807515)   #34
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paul-collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridpaul-collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridpaul-collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
...except they have the January tests to determine where they were in performance, not to mention historical data on GT performance. Sure, they changed the bus stop, but otherwise the GT lap times were a known quantity.

If they were expecting to get faster times than at the test days last year, they gambled wrong. Qualifying for the track didn't get better until the finale, and only by 0.3 seconds.

I can see why they didn't want to make the changes immediately - after all, they had kneecapped every other existing category, and were probably worried about alienating the last class that could accept competitors from the year before without modifications. When it became apparent that GT itself was emptying, GA found it necessary to add GS1 to the field - and needed to ensure that those competitors would stick around.

The penalties on GT weren't so much about ensuring the DPs would win (after all, did a GT car win another race all year?), so much as trying to bring them down to GS1 (now SGS) level of performance.
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Old 9 Dec 2003, 16:02 (Ref:807580)   #35
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gttouring should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
" so much as trying to bring them down to GS1 (now SGS) level of performance. "
problem defined- why spend money on a well prepared built and design factory GT car when you get it "kneed capped" to run as a SGS car? that's just rude
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Old 9 Dec 2003, 16:11 (Ref:807586)   #36
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paul-collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridpaul-collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridpaul-collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Why indeed. That's the explicit strategy of Grand Am.

Even their 2x reigning GT champion team is abandoning GT next year for SGS. They can run a Challenge Ferrari for a lot less than their GT, and go for roughly the same position on the lap charts. No reduction in exposure, but reduction in cost.

It's the fundamental difference in ROI approach between the two series - one is aimed at increasing returns, the other at reducing investment requirements.
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Old 9 Dec 2003, 16:20 (Ref:807594)   #37
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gttouring should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
ROI? sorry its early
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Old 9 Dec 2003, 16:22 (Ref:807596)   #38
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paul-collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridpaul-collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridpaul-collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
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Old 9 Dec 2003, 17:36 (Ref:807637)   #39
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It really does make an obscene amount of sense if you think about it.

You can pick up a DP for roughly the price of an RSR or GTC...kinda sick.

As for the fuel mileage, the SGS/GSI cars werent that bad on fuel because they are(were) stock cars.

It was explained to me before as were most "GT" porsches start life as GT3 race prepped factory cars, the GS cars start life as street cars and are race prepped. Much cheaper, much less prep.

The only thing that allowed the Porsche to win the 24 was the fact that GA pushed the DPs into the race without any real testing or development. If the car were to run a full 24 hours, it is still 2 or so seconds a lap quicker...which isnt much mind you, but quite a bit over 24hrs.

As for the Mustang, it was going up for sale and I need to write my friend again as they have been awful quiet lately...
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Old 9 Dec 2003, 17:42 (Ref:807638)   #40
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Oh yeah, Fab, dont feel bad, I have started posts like that too and afterwards said...man that was stupid, if this was worded a tad different....
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Old 9 Dec 2003, 18:08 (Ref:807662)   #41
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The only thing that allowed the Porsche to win the 24 was the fact that GA pushed the DPs into the race without any real testing or development. If the car were to run a full 24 hours, it is still 2 or so seconds a lap quicker...which isnt much mind you, but quite a bit over 24hrs.
I think you're right - the Multimatic was 10 laps down within the second hour, and had fought its way back onto the lead lap by about hour 19 (so about a half a lap per hour difference) before the throttle spring broke again just before 9 in the morning, setting them back 6 hours and ending the overall challenge. (They later changed their header to ensure that they'd make it home, since they just had to beat the Brumos cars, leading to a 16 lap deficit to the leaders.)

If they had've had as flawless a run as Buckler had, they'd have won by 12-14 laps, even with the full GT fuel tank.
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Old 9 Dec 2003, 19:21 (Ref:807730)   #42
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Oh yeah, Fab, dont feel bad, I have started posts like that too and afterwards said...man that was stupid, if this was worded a tad different....
Sorry guys but I don't think Fab has any reason whatsoever to feel bad about this - Whether his report was contemporary or not this was a regulation change made specifically to boost and sustain grid numbers after the season had started.

That changed the basis of competition for existing GA teams as well as 'visitors'. That's quite apart from the suspicion that it may have had something to do with the potential embarassment of a 'lower' class car competing for race wins.

On the "DP costs roughly the same as an RSR" front there is a simple answer. You can race an RSR more or less anywhere in almost any National or International series except GA (ie you have the choice of varying your season and/or contesting one-off races in addition to your core season in another championship) You can't do that with a DP - Therefore your options and your investment, are less flexible - Your potential customer base for a second hand car is narrower too, no small thing as far as many sportscar teams are concerned. ROI begins to look a little different when all of this is taken into account.

I have no problem with GA or anyone else doing it their own way but lets not make too many excuses for a bad policy decision that had to be undone after the season had started. There is no level on which this was fair for their existing GT class teams. The fact that they did it anyway speaks volumes for the prevailing attitude.
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Old 9 Dec 2003, 19:40 (Ref:807742)   #43
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Hey Fab, if you do plan to attend the Daytona 24 let me know, I would love to meet you. Daytona is an experience all its own, and any sort of race cars running for twenty four hours is still a great thing!!

Also, wine recomendations are always sought! What would go well with the canned ravioli heated over the camp stove?
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Old 10 Dec 2003, 05:52 (Ref:808033)   #44
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Hey Fab, if you do plan to attend the Daytona 24 let me know, I would love to meet you. Daytona is an experience all its own, and any sort of race cars running for twenty four hours is still a great thing!!
And you know what ? My best friend his now living around in Georgia (St Simon Island) ! She invited me last week to make a round trip passing by Daytona, Sebring and Road Atlanta ! My problem is... time (lack of)... igh: and what could I do with the wife and kids ?

But I swear to me that I'll do it one day, and maybe not so far from now... 2005 ? We'll share this for sure !

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Also, wine recomendations are always sought! What would go well with the canned ravioli heated over the camp stove?
I use to drink a fresh dry white (a Muscadet) or, better, a "Cabernet Rosé d'Anjou" they make here around in my countryside... I'll bring it with me in June !

Last edited by Fab; 10 Dec 2003 at 05:52.
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