Champcar Fans Rejoice

[rpolinski]

Looks like fears of champcar becoming a feeder category for F1 was premature. With the newly announce FIA F1 regulations it looks like F1 might become the feeder category for champcars.

RIP F1

[Liz]

I agree -- I think Max has lost his last marble.

However, sometimes you have to go a long way down before you come back up. ChampCars are on the way up, so what they do over there in Formula We're Too Good For The Likes Of You is of no importance HERE!

[The Snout]

However, sometimes you have to go a long way down before you come back up.

More truthful words were never spoken. Hitting rock bottom is the best kick in the arse sometimes.

[veeten]

Don't start planing F1's demise just yet. If anything else, the past conversations between Bernie And Pook might turn up some surprising results.

I've stated this in another Champ Car forum, that there is a common three-year window between F1 and Champ Cars, especially when it comes to the powertrains and their manufacturers. V-10s will be the thread between the two series, and even with a couple of them re-badged for the North American market( Mercedes-Chrysler, Ferrari-Maserati, Renault-Nissan/Infiniti, even Toyota-Lexus and Honda-Acura), and some keeping their names (BMW, Ford) they will all be powering the racing on all continents.

This also allows for the easier interchanging of drivers and teams between both series, as well as the gaining of sponsors from all points of the globe. And as we've seen over the past few months, getting sponsor monies is a major reason of the lack of stability in both grids.

As similar with Sportscar racing between ALMS and FIA-SCC, the two stronger open-wheel international series won't not merge, but will come to some mutual agreement that's benificial to both in the long run.

[Lee Janotta]

But still no slicks, still stupid-looking skinny cars... Lord, Max is an idiot.

CART needs to offer manufacturers a much better value than V-10s which need to be completely redesigned every year, and cost a fortune to build!!!

And it needs the turbos, mix of circuits, and awesome-looking wide, low-slung cars to maintain a unique marketing identity, if they _ever_ want "Champcar" to resonate like "Indycar"!

[Lee Janotta]

Y'know... I had to take a second look at some of those new rules... I think Max has been reading my posts!

Dammit Mosely, you could at least give me _some_ credit!

[Lee Janotta]

But still no slicks, still stupid-looking skinny cars... Lord Max is an idiot.

CART needs to offer manufacturers a much better value than V-10s which need to be completely redesigned every year, and cost a fortune to build!!!

[veeten]

As opposed to what, an engine formula that will take most of the present manufacturers 3 years to bring to market? And in the present economic climate, no one else is making any moves to build one.

Seeing that both series are moving towards a common ECU for engine management, and that the FIA is mandating that the engines used will be directed towards long-life rather than high RPMs, it'll become more feasable to go with V10 option.

It will still maintain the circuits and identity, but like most things, change is a constant.

[Lee Janotta]

Production 3.5L DOHC V6. Use their high-performance divisions to build up the engines with forged crankshafts and pistons, new head and intake designs, and a turbo and intercooler.

700hp, and you're done. Is that too hard for you to grasp???

That poll I conducted here showed members overwhelmingly wanted to keep the turbochargers.

You can not, NOT, get a reasonable 700 to 800 horsepower out of a 3.0L naturally aspirated V-10 without revving it like a chainsaw and spending a fortune on parts made of unobtanium!

[The Snout]

Yep, Champcars are going to have V10 Power. They are going to be longlife and the cars won't change to F1 clones, they'll keep the current look with an airbox, slicks will remain. Manufacturers will get the International Market through F1 and North American saturation through Champcars, more bang in 2 series for their development buck. Turbos ? Cart can as easily allow Turbo charging back in to rules that make performance between atmos and turbos even, then the manufacturers can pick which ever they want to use. It would also allow other manufacturers like Subaru, Mitsubishi
, and other factories who like their rice burners to field an engine. All this debate about V10 or Turbo, why not mandate for both, we don't have to pick one or the other, think outside the square. Use specs to keep performance even then just let the manufacturers decide which engine they would like to develop.

[crazytrain]

The Snout, F1 previously had teams with turbos and N/A engines but canned the idea because it was too hard to police and keep fair.

[veeten]

If that was the case, then why wasn't it made the Formula for CART, IRL, or F1 over the last 8 to 10 seasons? Coincidence?... nope.

Everyone may make a V6, but not every engine is easily translatable to racing duty, turbo or n/a.

Looks great on paper, but so does everything else...

[The Snout]

The Snout, F1 previously had teams with turbos and N/A engines but canned the idea because it was too hard to police and keep fair.

If that is the case, then it's not totally absurd for Cart revisit the topic 15 years after Turbos left F1. My take on it was Turbo development simply outperformed a Cosworth Atmo engine that was well over a decade old at the time, so everyone bar Tyrrell and perhaps some other backmarkers pretty much had Turbo power by 1985, 3 years before Turbos were booted out.

I arguing that Cart has spoken to the car manufacturers and they indicate that they are interested in building V10s, so Cart are likely to mandate V10 from 2005. I'm simply trying to chuck some balls up in the air in an effort to allow that (V10s) to happen to keep the manufacturers happy and also keep Turbos as well to keep the fans happy. I remember in ther late 80s that in the WEC you had Sauber Mercedes Turbo and the Silk Cut Jaguar's atmos, they seemed to be police'd ok.

[Lee Janotta]

Originally posted by veeten
If that was the case, then why wasn't it made the Formula for CART, IRL, or F1 over the last 8 to 10 seasons? Coincidence?... nope.

Everyone may make a V6, but not every engine is easily translatable to racing duty, turbo or n/a.

Looks great on paper, but so does everything else...

Because it's never been used, it's not a good idea? Cripes, that's a logical fallacy if ever I've heard one!!!

F1 has their insanely high-tech formula. They haven't used production engines since before WWII!

CART has had a fantastic 2.65L formula, and until this season, no trouble finding suppliers.

IRL wanted to use atmospheric engines, particularly the 4.0L V8 from the then-new Oldsmobile Aurora.

Ford's Duratech V6 sees duty in the Dakar rally. If that's not a massive test of an engine, I don't know what is.

Honda's V6 is used in the Japanese GT Championship. Does a fine job there, puts a lot of power down.

Porsche's 3.4L flat six... Well, what hasn't been said about the engine introduced in the Boxster? It won LeMans in turbocharged form in the 911 GT1!

If WRC is any indication of the turbo engines they can build from production blocks, Subaru's flat six should work great.

Like I said, with reworked heads, and forged or billet cranks, rods and pistons, the engines should make 700hp with good reliability on leaded gasoline.

[The Snout]

Lee, it's a top idea, manufacturers as you have indicated have hardware around to do the job. Do the manufacturers want to build them though for racing in Cart ? Cart, who have spoken to all the major manufacturers in the last 6 months indicate that they are interested in building V10 Gasoline engines. So what do we do, mandate 4cyl/V6 Turbo engines and take the gamble of manufacturers building them race ready for Cart. Or mandate a V10 that they are indicating they are interested in building.

I'd like to see Cart dangle out the big ones and have both Atmo and Turbos.

[alfasud]

F1 Production engines since WWII:
- Repco Brabham V8 (1960's) based on Buick/Rover V8 block
- BMW 1.5L Turbo (based on BMW 1600/1800/2002 block)
- I think you will find that some Ferrari F1 engines were first used in sports cars and therefore can be considered "production" engines.
- probably others I can't remember.

But V10's are a strange idea, a compromise that somehow got written into the F1 regulations. But despite that they haven't bought any stability because the designers are always changing the Vee angle and recasting the block a couple of cm smaller and a few kg lighter. And they sound horrid too.

The main problem with the V8 Turbos is that there is only one supplier.

[veeten]

Originally posted by Lee Janotta
Because it's never been used, it's not a good idea? Cripes, that's a logical fallacy if ever I've heard one!!!

I never said that it was a bad idea, just that none of the top level open wheel racing orgs have used it over the past few years for their premiere series'...

F1 has their insanely high-tech formula. They haven't used production engines since before WWII!

Then again, neither has CART, IRL, USAC, NASCAR, ALMS...

CART has had a fantastic 2.65L formula, and until this season, no trouble finding suppliers.

Then why had Porsche, Alfa Romeo, Judd, Illmor (with both Chevrolet and Mercedes), and just recently Honda and Toyota, bailed on this formula over the past few years?...

IRL wanted to use atmospheric engines, particularly the 4.0L V8 from the then-new Oldsmobile Aurora.

But, soon after hearing the god-awful sound they made, switched to a 3.5L V8 N/A engine formula, and were joined by Nissan, Chevy, and the afore-mentioned Toyota and Honda, who chose the switch after announcing that they would no longer pursue the turbo V8s.

Ford's Duratech V6 sees duty in the Dakar rally. If that's not a massive test of an engine, I don't know what is.

... and just 2 stages into the African half, Schlesser's breaks down. The #2 car isn't even competing in the upper part of the table. But the Mitsus, Nissans, and BMWs are doing well...

Honda's V6 is used in the Japanese GT Championship. Does a fine job there, puts a lot of power down.

...but it gets shown the heels of the Supras, GT-Rs, and the McLaren F1s. And yet all three run N/A V8s in IndyCar...odd, that.

Porsche's 3.4L flat six... Well, what hasn't been said about the engine introduced in the Boxster? It won LeMans in turbocharged form in the 911 GT1!

and haven't been seen in the upper level of Sportscar racing since... oops, that's right. They're entering the Grand Am DSPs, with a N/A flat-6... against a whole bunch of N/A V8s.

If WRC is any indication of the turbo engines they can build from production blocks, Subaru's flat six should work great.

2.L 4-Cylinder engines get turbos, Subie's use a flat-4t, and all are restricted to 320hp, tops.

Like I said, with reworked heads, and forged or billet cranks, rods and pistons, the engines should make 700hp with good reliability on leaded gasoline.

No one's been using Leaded mixtures in their racing fuels for quite some time. You may want to check some of the fuel formulas being used in those series.

Have a nice evening...

[Lee Janotta]

Originally posted by The Snout
Lee, it's a top idea, manufacturers as you have indicated have hardware around to do the job. Do the manufacturers want to build them though for racing in Cart ? Cart, who have spoken to all the major manufacturers in the last 6 months indicate that they are interested in building V10 Gasoline engines. So what do we do, mandate 4cyl/V6 Turbo engines and take the gamble of manufacturers building them race ready for Cart. Or mandate a V10 that they are indicating they are interested in building.

I'd like to see Cart dangle out the big ones and have both Atmo and Turbos.

Thanks, glad you like it.

Well, I'd like to know exactly who they've spoken to within the manufacturers. Marketing types might want the V10s, but beancounters would certainly be more inclined to go with the sixes.

If I was trying to sell this idea to manufacturers, I'd go to Mugen, and rig up just such an engine in the back of a Lola. Shoot some promotional footage of it running around Homestead, Indianapolis Raceway Park, or Motegi, and present that to the manufacturers along with the evidence I've started collecting (and am more than willing to help collect more of) that CART's fans will respond more to the turbos. And then present them with the costs of one of the "long-life" F1 engines, plus the cost of a complete redesign every year, compared to the cost of use a stock block with some special heads and intake, and a bunch of off-the-shelf go-fast parts that are already in the racing parts catalogs for many of the manufacturers. Emphasize that last point in particular.

I bet you could get Porsche on board without much arm-twisting... And the ball could start rolling downhill from there.

If they still insist on the V-10s... Whatever, go with a run-what-you-brung formula, and let 'em all go nuts trying to outspend each other.

[The Snout]

And then present them with the costs of one of the "long-life" F1 engines, plus the cost of a complete redesign every year, compared to the cost of use a stock block with some special heads and intake, and a bunch of off-the-shelf go-fast parts that are already in the racing parts catalogs for many of the manufacturers. Emphasize that last point in particular.

If manufacturers are happy to use blown production V6's with shelf parts and put their name on it then it's the cheapest way to go in keeping Turbos in the series. The only thing hanging over it could be that manufacturers may not see enough R&D in it to be involved. We sort of need a balance between not letting makers outspend each other and driving up costs, but at the same time provide a way that they can make R&D gains on the racetrack for use in producing a better road car.

It's pretty obvious I would have thought that Pook has some kind of V10 F1 crossover in mind. How he plans to do that but keep the engine costs down I have no idea. For me, it does go against the grain of Cart's cost containment policy heading toward 2005, yet entertaining the idea of a V10 gas F1 crossover. However Pook isn't dumb either so all I can imagine is guys like Ford,Mercedes etc have said that they can supply V10 F1 based engines to Cart at a lot less cost than it takes to power Jaguar,McLaren etc. Whether it's because Cart will mandate standard bits and pieces on the engine to cut the R&D cost down I don't know. But Pook knows Cart teams can't afford a $20M+ - $30M (whatever it is) engine cost per season, so we don't yet know something. For me anyway, it's to big an oversight for Cart to have missed.

[Lee Janotta]

Originally posted by veeten
I never said that it was a bad idea, just that none of the top level open wheel racing orgs have used it over the past few years for their premiere series'...

Then again, neither has CART, IRL, USAC, NASCAR, ALMS...

ALMS isn't too far off from this idea.

Then why had Porsche, Alfa Romeo, Judd, Illmor (with both Chevrolet and Mercedes), and just recently Honda and Toyota, bailed on this formula over the past few years?...

Porsche, Alfa, and Judd bailed years ago.

Roger Penske owned Ilmor, and drove Chevrolet out when he essentially copied the Chevy engine for Mercedes. GM was, needless to say, incensed.

Mercedes wanted to focus more on F1 and DTM, they'd already won the championship and the Indy 500.

Toyota are greedy *******s, and wanted to strong-arm CART into using IRL engines so they could develop one engine for both series.

Honda's gone for one main reason: The pop-off debacle last year. Heitzler completely f***ed that one up like he did so many other hard decisions.

But, soon after hearing the god-awful sound they made, switched to a 3.5L V8 N/A engine formula, and were joined by Nissan, Chevy, and the afore-mentioned Toyota and Honda, who chose the switch after announcing that they would no longer pursue the turbo V8s.

And they still sound like ****!

... and just 2 stages into the African half, Schlesser's breaks down. The #2 car isn't even competing in the upper part of the table. But the Mitsus, Nissans, and BMWs are doing well...

And the BMW's a turbodiesel, while the other two are NA V6s.

The Ford's doing well for it's first year in the event.

...but it gets shown the heels of the Supras, GT-Rs, and the McLaren F1s. And yet all three run N/A V8s in IndyCar...odd, that.

The NSX took three wins last year! And that's a short championship!

Oh, and since you didn't know, Infiniti/Nissan has dropped out of the IRL.

and haven't been seen in the upper level of Sportscar racing since... oops, that's right. They're entering the Grand Am DSPs, with a N/A flat-6... against a whole bunch of N/A V8s.

What more did Porsche have to prove in the prototype categories at LeMans?

The Grand-Am rules are ****... But Porsche gets to tune their engine more aggressively than the larger engines. They've got as good a chance as anyone.

2.L 4-Cylinder engines get turbos, Subie's use a flat-4t, and all are restricted to 320hp, tops.

If you believe that, I've got a bridge for sale...

No one's been using Leaded mixtures in their racing fuels for quite some time. You may want to check some of the fuel formulas being used in those series.

<bzzzz!>

Oh, sorry! But thanks for playing! We've got some lovely parting gifts!

Unocal 76's 110 octane leaded racing gasoline has been the Official Fuel of NASCAR for the last 45 years!

[Crash Test]

I think some of Max's ideas are very good, others utterly terrible. Shoot, at least banger racing with banged up Mark 1 Escort, you can change engines, and use a pit radio! Sheesh!

[norman-normal]

The biggest single reasonthat they are no longer racing both NA and turbos; is that its too easy for turbos to qualify in the first few rows, just turn up the boost. And for the record Toyota has never produced a Supra V8, they all have in-line6 because they have seven main brgs(V8s have 5) not to mention 14 cam brgs. A production V8 could not reliably produce that kind of HP(600-700) from a 3000cc engine.

[veeten]

For the Racing Supra in JGTC, Toyota uses a turbo I-4 instead of the previous turbo I-6, for a better power/weight ratio. This same engine design has a long history, dating back to their GTP program in the late 80's.

The only engine, in my opinion, that's superior to it is the BMW I-4 turbo of that same time.

[JonesF1]

Originally posted by veeten
For the Racing Supra in JGTC, Toyota uses a turbo I-4 instead of the previous turbo I-6, for a better power/weight ratio. This same engine design has a long history, dating back to their GTP program in the late 80's.

The only engine, in my opinion, that's superior to it is the BMW I-4 turbo of that same time.

I thought only TOMs used the 4-banger? Its the same engine the Corolla used in WRC.

[gaines]

All I can say is I hope that they keep costs low, whatever they do. Pollock wouldn't even be involved in racing this year if not for CART's new system with low costs. F1 is insane when you think about trying to start up a new team. It's almost impossible and really you're throwing your money out the window. You can run five good Champ teams for the price of one F1 team right now. If you wanted to move into an open wheel series that goes across the globe, where would you go?

I like the turbos and would love to see them stay but if V10s mean we still have our racing in five years instead of no series, I'll take it. Costs have to stay low, though, otherwise we'll be back where we were before Pook and that would be very bad for the series.