Pit stops in club racing.

[paddy]

I've spent the weekend at Cadwell and I'd be interested to hear people's views on compulsory pit stops in club racing. I have to admit that I'm not a fan and I think that this weekend showed why. On Saturday there was some great racing, but despite excellent entries Sunday was disappointing. I understand that the CSCC encourage two drivers per car and try to maximise track time, but surely 2 x 20 minutes would be better than 40 minutes with pit stop. All that the pit stops achieve is to break up battles on the track and confuse the spectator. The commentators on Sunday did well, but the races were spoilt for me.
What do people think? Do drivers enjoy this format?

[Ian Sowman]

I agree. While I understand that club racing isn't really put on for the benefit of the people watching it any more (a shame), I have seen far more good races ruined by pit stops than made by them.

[Chris Y]

I've done a few of the CSCC 40 minute races, and there's something quite nice about getting the jump on your opposition by being faster in the pitstop than they are!

However, I do appreciate that it would be pretty confusing for the average spectator - not helped by having lots of different classes. In a 40 minute race, there's lots of opportunities for lapping the slower cars, so the field would be pretty disorganised.

I agree that 2 x 20 minute races would be better in general. Although I'd miss the 'enduro' style of the 40 minute races, with the lapping of the slower cars, the excitement of the pitstops, the needing a larger fuel tank, and the general unpredictability, I think the racing would be better without all that. Having 2 races would give a few unfortunates that don't finish in race one a second chance, and it would certainly reduce the confusion for the spectators and commentators. It would also give the 2nd driver more time to get comfortable, etc.

The 2CV racing club buy a chunk of time off the organising club (BARC) - I think it's an hour - then they're free to run 2 x 25 minute races during the day. Maybe that would work better for the CSCC?

[paddy]

I agree with the drivers having two chances. On Saturday there was mechanical carnage in the first MG Midget race and it ended up being a bit processional. Some of the drivers managed to get back on track for race two and there was some great dicing. If it had been one 40 minute race it would have been very dull for the last 25-30 minutes. I know I'm speaking purely from a spectator's point of view, but we do need to know what we are watching and without live timing and scoring following long races is very difficult.

[brands hatch]

Originally Posted by Ian Sowman

While I understand that club racing isn't really put on for the benefit of the people watching it any more (a shame), I have seen far more good races ruined by pit stops than made by them.

i agree with you. i believe pitstops, in any form of motorsport, have a negative impact on the race, mainly because battles are broken up.

[Tim Falce]

I quite enjoy the pitstops when doing the longer races and as for it splitting up battles, sometimes it can help as a driver especially if you get stuck behind someone of a similar speed.
At Spa in July I was having a battle with a car until my pitstop, lost him for a few laps only to find he came out from his pitstop right behind me which made it all the more interesting.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by paddy

I understand that the CSCC encourage two drivers per car and try to maximise track time, but surely 2 x 20 minutes would be better than 40 minutes with pit stop.

If you replace a single 40 minute race with two races, they won't be 20 minutes each - at best, with optimistic programming, they would be 15 minutes. While I'm not a great fan of longer races, they do maximise total track time as the number of turn-rounds between races is reduced.

[Al Weyman]

I agree it would be better two races for all the above reasons and one of the things that puts me off CSCC races. I also agree they would indeed not be two 20 minute races but I recon if the 2nd could be a rolling start AKA DMN then the track time could be extended. However having said that as I understand it the length of time the pit stop takes is used as a penalty to slow previously quick cars and because CSCC has no regs as such is the only way they can get a bit of equality (even more confusing for the spectator prehaps who may see all things as being more or less equal between similar looking cars when in fact they are not at all?).

[kipper]

Personally, I quite like the occasional longer club race with pitstops. I think that the key thing is that the better race meetings need to have a balance between the two types of racing. I do think that the CSCC generally get the mix about right (although I can't speak for the Cadwell meeting as I wasn't there) with a few longer races balanced against shorter Jaguar/Monoposto races. I do think though that some categories of racing do tend to better lend themselves to longer races.

[DaveGT6]

I've raced with the CSCC for a few years now and it was the longer races with pit stops that made it for me. Previously I was competing in 15 or 20 min club races in a championship. Inevitably some races were cut short due to incidents and with a 15 min format tended to be red flagged rather than a safety car or waved yellows. The longer races are much better value for money. It also feels like you're in a proper race with team work, pit stops etc. It gives friends and helpers an opportunity to get involved manning the pit board (which you need after a pit stop) and helping in the driver changeover. It also adds additional excitment as there are battles fought in the pit lane. I find sharing the driving adds to the excitement, reduces the cost of the meeting and offers the opportunity to drive other cars. All in all it beats a sprint race hands down. With regard to not being so exciting for the spectators - the day that club racing starts attracting spectators like it used to so that my entry fee is reduced or I receive prize (or even start) money then I'll start worrying whether they enjoy it or not. Don't get me wrong, I spend my share of time as a spectator myself but please don't for a minute think we clubbies are playing to the crowd. As far as I can determine the gate fee on any normal club event has no impact on the costs of the meeting therefore the racers are paying for the priveledge of entertaining the "crowd" and not the other way round. Probably sounds arrogant but not meant to be - it's just the way it is nowadays.

[davspeed]

A lot of drivers obviously like the longer format as we had three races with full grids on Sunday which is very good going for Cadwell Park.

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by DaveGT6

With regard to not being so exciting for the spectators - the day that club racing starts attracting spectators like it used to so that my entry fee is reduced or I receive prize (or even start) money then I'll start worrying whether they enjoy it or not. Don't get me wrong, I spend my share of time as a spectator myself but please don't for a minute think we clubbies are playing to the crowd. As far as I can determine the gate fee on any normal club event has no impact on the costs of the meeting therefore the racers are paying for the priveledge of entertaining the "crowd" and not the other way round. Probably sounds arrogant but not meant to be - it's just the way it is nowadays.

Doesnt sound arrogant at all just factual, good post Dave sums it up nicely.

[westfieldbend]

Originally Posted by brands hatch

i agree with you. i believe pitstops, in any form of motorsport, have a negative impact on the race, mainly because battles are broken up.

Agreed but i have to say i do enjoy watching long races (with pit stops) every now and again (meaning over 1hour30 - like speed series).

Sprint races are certainly the most enjoyable to watch but i find anything in the middle (mini enduro - 30mins-1hour) tends to be a bit of a poor show as a spectator - no real 'pit stop tactics' and the field can get strung out a bit.

But im only a spectator

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by DaveGT6

I've raced with the CSCC for a few years now and it was the longer races with pit stops that made it for me. Previously I was competing in 15 or 20 min club races in a championship. Inevitably some races were cut short due to incidents and with a 15 min format tended to be red flagged rather than a safety car or waved yellows. The longer races are much better value for money. It also feels like you're in a proper race with team work, pit stops etc. It gives friends and helpers an opportunity to get involved manning the pit board (which you need after a pit stop) and helping in the driver changeover. It also adds additional excitment as there are battles fought in the pit lane. I find sharing the driving adds to the excitement, reduces the cost of the meeting and offers the opportunity to drive other cars. All in all it beats a sprint race hands down. With regard to not being so exciting for the spectators - the day that club racing starts attracting spectators like it used to so that my entry fee is reduced or I receive prize (or even start) money then I'll start worrying whether they enjoy it or not. Don't get me wrong, I spend my share of time as a spectator myself but please don't for a minute think we clubbies are playing to the crowd. As far as I can determine the gate fee on any normal club event has no impact on the costs of the meeting therefore the racers are paying for the priveledge of entertaining the "crowd" and not the other way round. Probably sounds arrogant but not meant to be - it's just the way it is nowadays.

[NLaskey]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

You beat me to it Mike;

I race with the CSCC and that just about sums it up for me...the grids are always over subscribed so I think that tells the story

[ZombieSheep]

It's confusing for the spectators, but have you ever tried flagging a race like that? I did a VSCC event a few months ago and as soon as the pit stops started, the blue flag went away 'cos I didn't have a clue who the leaders were.

[G.Walker]

I saw the penalty system in use at CSCC Oulton Park, the leader of Future Classic race was pulled in for almost 2 minutes, came out and still won.

Surely a weight ballast for success would be more beneficial than drivers pulling into pits during the race an having a cup of tea and a cigar

[Al Weyman]

I think the idea of the series is basically no regs or eligibility scrutineering as such so I would imagine ballast and weighing cars would defeat that object.

[andy97]

Yes & fitting, say, 10kg of ballast to a succesful light car will have a toatally different impact to fitting 10Kg to a heavier car. And then there's the safety issues of bolting weight in.

[PieMan]

The timed pit stop 'handicapping' must have gone awry in one of the CSCC races at Cadwell on 7 September because the Safety Car was out when most people were stopping.

What really concerned me was that race control held the Safety Car at the pit exit before clearing it to join. This blocked the pit exit and trapped some cars, which must have caused them to lose a lap.

[Gerryc]

Alan, I'm sure that must have really ****ed-off the drivers concerned any idea why the CoC did'nt release the safety car when it needed to be deployed - were they waiting to pick up the leader? I agree that it is poor to block the pit lane exit but did you see the video on the Aussie GTs forum where the safety car stopped on track just after the pit lane exit and almost caused a massive pile-up?

What ever you do it is going to be wrong in some way.

[Lancsbreaker]

Another to agree with DaveGT6 - perhaps because I come from rallying, the idea of racing as part of a team does have great appeal - and with CSCC we do get much better value for money in terms of tracktime than seems to be the case with most club racing......

We tend to lose time in the pit-stops compared to most people because (a) we're old and don't bend so easily, and (b) we're different shapes so have to faff around removing seat padding and adjusting the belts....but this season we've had some good dices with our fellow competitors, and everyone taking part does seem to enjoy it. Realistically the number of paying spectators who aren't involved with one of the racers is probably pretty low, so I tend to the view that the organising club should run the races for the competitors - which I think CSCC do.

Sure the Safety car can produce anomolies - I just missed getting out of the pit at one meeting and effectively lost a lap - but as has been said - in a shorter race you are more likely to get the race rad-flagged, and maybe not restarted.