Newman/Haas end IRL rumour

[JohnSSC]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

Hopefully the ChampCar organisers have that under control from 2008 and that wont be an issue.

At the moment it seems both series will have a declining schedule in 2008, low tv figures and fluctuating crowds depending on the event.

The Indy 500 as mentioned so many times is the key, ChampCar needs to find a way to get its teams running (even 1 car per team) in the event to sign up some sponsors.

So the new business model then is for the CC teams to run in the 500 in order for sponsors to notice them?

Thousands of words written here about how the 500 is no longer a premier event, or even important, and today it has become the lynchpin of marketing success for CC!

In that case then, why bother with being a CC team and just...oh, nevermind!!

PS- the IRL has a "declining schedule?" I must have missed the cancellations. Are they following the CC business model now?

[climb]

good points John!

[JohnSSC]

Cheers, Climb!

[NAC]

Just came across this, cant remember it it was put up or not, if so humble appologies

"Newman/Haas/Lanigan Racing have not had any contact with Dallara regarding purchases of cars. We can only conclude that these rumors are being started by someone with malicious intent."

[climb]

It was indeed

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

So the new business model then is for the CC teams to run in the 500 in order for sponsors to notice them?

Use the 500 to entice year long sponsorships, just as the IRL does.

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Thousands of words written here about how the 500 is no longer a premier event, or even important, and today it has become the lynchpin of marketing success for CC!

No longer the event it was. Can you find me where it has been written that the 500 is no longer the premier AOW event ?

While it has declined in stature and tv ratings, it still is the only race that matters to main stream America.

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

In that case then, why bother with being a CC team and just...oh, nevermind!!

I guess they dont want to run the IRL full time

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

PS- the IRL has a "declining schedule?" I must have missed the cancellations.

The loss of Michigan. 17 to 16 events for 2008. The loss of Pheonix, Califronia in the last couple of years, down a race at Texas, questions over the last Texas race after this contract. Did you miss any of this ?

0.9 rating for the season finale. Not really the gold mine many hear are professing

[JohnSSC]

No, I didn't miss any of it regarding the "cancellations," but there is a big difference between having a race come to the end of it's contractual run and not renewing and having races announced at the start of a season (China/Phoenix) that are cancelled before they happen during the season.

I am not going to pull them all out, but a casual browse reveals a long thread at the start of almost every season regarding whether the 500 is indeed the premier OW event. There are many who post on these boards that have downplayed that race and it's significance for some time. I really don't think we need to start the electronic equivalent of a slap fight by pulling up quotes from 2007, 2006, 2005 etc.

I am still curious though as to how CC should be using an IRL event to market themselves. I mean, you would have to agree that it makes sense for the IRL to market the 500 as it is part of their Series and all. Do you think we should encourage TG to support CC teams coming over to run the 500 so that the CC teams can show the potential sponsors what running the 500 in Dallaras could do for them as sponsors the rest of the year when they run in DP-01s in China or Phoenix or San Jose? I mean, that makes a lot of sense for TG to do that because he can support CC teams in their attempt to gain more sponsorship so they can compete in a series that is a competitor of his series! He is probably kicking himself right now for not having this thought sooner!

This is a brilliant idea! Perhaps Ford should try it: "Go ahead America! Buy that Honda! Drive it for 5 trouble-free years and then you will KNOW you want a Ford after that!" perhaps you should contact some of the marketing departments involved and pitch this line of reasoning. I would be curious to hear the answer:

"Dear Mr. Johnson, I think that KK should write a really big check so that all 17 cars in the series (2 from NHL and 15 from DCR) can run the Indy 500. This way they can show sponsors how much better CCWS is at the premier AOW event, which is held by TG and the IRL. Since CC does not have such an event, it is imperative that you fund our effort there so we may solicit sponsorship."

Might send that myself.

Makes perfect sense...kind of reminds of the scene in Monty Python's "Holy Grail" where they determine the woman is a witch because ducks float as does wood and if she floats then obviously she is a witch.

[stradlin21]

A champ car fan questioning IRL's scheduling!

I've seen it all now!!

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

No, I didn't miss any of it regarding the "cancellations," but there is a big difference between having a race come to the end of it's contractual run and not renewing and having races announced at the start of a season (China/Phoenix) that are cancelled before they happen during the season.

Why is the comparison against ChampCar. If things are as bad as you make out at CC, why use it as a benchmark for the IRL ?

A declining schedule from 2007 to 2008 (17 to 16 events) is a declining schedule, regardless of what anyone else is doing. For IRL teams and sponsors, losing a race and tv time is not a good thing.

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

I am not going to pull them all out, but a casual browse reveals a long thread at the start of almost every season regarding whether the 500 is indeed the premier OW event. There are many who post on these boards that have downplayed that race and it's significance for some time.

Its significance against what it was, not its significance against other AOW races.

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

I am still curious though as to how CC should be using an IRL event to market themselves.

A team such as Conquest goes to a sponsor, heres our ChampCar events for 2008, heres the tv deal and on top of that we will run the Indy 500, in front of 300 000 fans and a rating of 4.0ish.

The sponsor isnt going to thing, hey thats an IRL race, they know it as the Indy 500.

[JohnSSC]

You are presuming that sponsors are, in effect, stupid. That somehow you can get a company to part with six or seven figures for a sponsorship program that will give them defined benefits in return for a defined level of visibility of the car and at the tracks the car goes to. That would include a complete description of the series itself, attendance figures, TV ratings, demographics etc. Assuming that the sponsor "isn't going to thing (sic), hey thats an IRL race, they know it as the Indy 500" is calling for a level of cluelessness that is almost beyond comprehension.

If the potential sponsors out there are that dimwitted then how could CC be in sponsorship trouble at all? I mean, you could tell them that this is the Greatest Racing Series Ever, lie about attendance and the TV and just stand back and watch the cash flow in...

As far as the schedule goes, I don't think there is any comparison in CC canceling 3 events during the season and the IRL announcing their schedule for NEXT season having one less race. Is one less race a good thing? Probably not. Is announcing a schedule late and then cancelling three during the course of the season a small matter? Definitely not. You are comparing apples and oranges here. By the way, where is that CC schedule? The one we were confidently told by other posters would be released in September...

In fact it is a rather confusing point that is being made. You have to excuse me as the whole "CC goes to Indy" to secure sponsorship seems rather weak. Why attract sponsors to the top race in your competitor's series?

Go back and read some of those threads, D.R.T. Much is posted about the 500 being just another race and completely superfluous, rather than being held up as the premier "OW" race. But I don't want to start that debate (again).

[luke]

DRT don't waste your time bud.

[fazzaz]

I was involved in motorsports marketing for a few years, and John's main point is correct: you can't use the Indy 500 to sell Champ Car. It might (emphasis on might) work the other way if you had a sponsor who wanted to be in Champ Car; at this point CDW seems to be the only major company in that category. For that company Indy could perhaps be sold as a bonus.

It's possible that a really bright sponsor rep could construct a "mix 'n match" approach if he had a potential sponsor who wanted a presence in specific markets, perhaps Indy and Houston and Sheboygan and the Monterey Penninsula (although I have no idea what a company might be selling to that specific crowd.)

John, I've started a to write more on the area of motorsports marketing, what works and why, and then I erased it. There's a lot to the business of racing, and it's not always obvious. One of the worst sins, though, in dealing with a sponsor is to commit something: races in specific locations, for example, and then cancel them after the sponsor has made marketing plans and spent money. Other potential sponsors look at this situation, and are scared away.

And that's why you're right.

Fz.

[JohnSSC]

Thank you, fazzaz!

I had not considered your point regarding the cancellations until you noted it. I was looking at it simply from the "How/why is this happening?" standpoint rather than considering the ramifications for the sponsors. Makes perfect sense though: Sponsor A ponies-up X dollars after being told the car will appear at X, Y & Z locations. Then some of those locations get canceled. It would not be a stretch then to see that sponsors are going to be looking to spend their $$ somewhere else next year.

[stradlin21]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

You are presuming that sponsors are, in effect, stupid. That somehow you can get a company to part with six or seven figures for a sponsorship program that will give them defined benefits in return for a defined level of visibility of the car and at the tracks the car goes to. That would include a complete description of the series itself, attendance figures, TV ratings, demographics etc. Assuming that the sponsor "isn't going to thing (sic), hey thats an IRL race, they know it as the Indy 500" is calling for a level of cluelessness that is almost beyond comprehension.

If the potential sponsors out there are that dimwitted then how could CC be in sponsorship trouble at all? I mean, you could tell them that this is the Greatest Racing Series Ever, lie about attendance and the TV and just stand back and watch the cash flow in...

As far as the schedule goes, I don't think there is any comparison in CC canceling 3 events during the season and the IRL announcing their schedule for NEXT season having one less race. Is one less race a good thing? Probably not. Is announcing a schedule late and then cancelling three during the course of the season a small matter? Definitely not. You are comparing apples and oranges here. By the way, where is that CC schedule? The one we were confidently told by other posters would be released in September...

In fact it is a rather confusing point that is being made. You have to excuse me as the whole "CC goes to Indy" to secure sponsorship seems rather weak. Why attract sponsors to the top race in your competitor's series?

Go back and read some of those threads, D.R.T. Much is posted about the 500 being just another race and completely superfluous, rather than being held up as the premier "OW" race. But I don't want to start that debate (again).

Great post John

Don't worry about the rose tinted spectacle crew, i think it's mostly jealousy to be honest

The champ car scheduling problems don't really need discussing, it's clear for all to see

And the 'laugh' posted on the first message on this thread, very grown up! but then.........what do you expect!

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

You are presuming that sponsors are, in effect, stupid.

Not at all.

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Assuming that the sponsor "isn't going to thing (sic), hey thats an IRL race, they know it as the Indy 500" is calling for a level of cluelessness that is almost beyond comprehension.

Why would you say that?

The Indy 500 has huge sponsorship interest, as evidenced by the amount of one off deals done for the event. A sponsor doesnt care if a race for IRL's cars, ChampCars, ALMS or shopping trolleys. The sponsor cares about who is watching (Who, what, why, where, when) and their link between product and consumer.

This builds the sponsorship package, an offer of a ChampCar season (sponsor benfits include) with an appearance at the Indy 500 (sponsor benefits include).

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

If the potential sponsors out there are that dimwitted then how could CC be in sponsorship trouble at all? I mean, you could tell them that this is the Greatest Racing Series Ever, lie about attendance and the TV and just stand back and watch the cash flow in...

Who's lying about anything ?

A ChampCar team increases its audience when it includes a run at the Indy 500. All about building the sponsorship package.

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

As far as the schedule goes, I don't think there is any comparison in CC canceling 3 events during the season and the IRL announcing their schedule for NEXT season having one less race.

Nor do I. I am still perplexed as to why you are justifying the IRL declining schedule against ChampCar ? Does it help you sleep at night ?

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Is announcing a schedule late and then cancelling three during the course of the season a small matter? Definitely not. You are comparing apples and oranges here. By the way, where is that CC schedule? The one we were confidently told by other posters would be released in September...

Heres the thing John, I aint comparing it. You are for some undisclosed reason.

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Is one less race a good thing? Probably not.

Probably not? Where is the doubt, John

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

In fact it is a rather confusing point that is being made. You have to excuse me as the whole "CC goes to Indy" to secure sponsorship seems rather weak. Why attract sponsors to the top race in your competitor's series?

Because it strengthens yours.

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Go back and read some of those threads, D.R.T. Much is posted about the 500 being just another race and completely superfluous, rather than being held up as the premier "OW" race. But I don't want to start that debate (again).

I'd offer you the same advice. As I believe you are taking comments out of context. The 500 against what is was as opposed to the 500 as AOW premier event currently.

[climb]

Some points:
- One less race in IRL schedule: .. and so what? IRL have slightly increased and decreased races in the last few years, little changes, no actual effects
- CC going to Indy: there was a time (200-2002) when it was an easy job for Cart teams to go to Indy, outrun the regulars, and give CART a potential boost in the comparison; CARt could have filled any newspaper last page with a giant ad: "seen folks? we'vo gone to Indy and swept it all! The real OWracing is at CART!" But ironically they intentionally refrained from doing it, because "there's nothing sacred about Indy"

-Nowadays this move is hardly meaningful, since the CC teams, except for NHR, don't have any chance to gain the spotlight, let alone to win, so why bothering purchasing cars and equipment to be, in the best case, midfield?

-Indy500 have a one-month schedule that any CC team should exploit 115% in order to get used to the cars/track etc. This would heavily affect the CC schedule; ok in the recent times it has not been difficult to find easy offseasons in it but you know what I mean...

[NAC]

You guys lost me ages ago, I thought this was a discussion about "Newman/Haas end IRL rumour" or is this just a cover in order to have discussion about IRL vs CC. If so who's winning

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by climb

Some points:
- One less race in IRL schedule: .. and so what?

A 2007 sponsor negotiating for 2008 I dont think will have the same response.

Originally Posted by climb

CC going to Indy: there was a time (200-2002) when it was an easy job for Cart teams to go to Indy, outrun the regulars, and give CART a potential boost in the comparison; CARt could have filled any newspaper last page with a giant ad: "seen folks? we'vo gone to Indy and swept it all! The real OWracing is at CART!" But ironically they intentionally refrained from doing it, because "there's nothing sacred about Indy"

That isn't the argument for ChampCar teams running the Indy 500.

Originally Posted by climb

Nowadays this move is hardly meaningful, since the CC teams, except for NHR, don't have any chance to gain the spotlight, let alone to win, so why bothering purchasing cars and equipment to be, in the best case, midfield?

Mid field at Indy is still attractive for a sponsor. Running top 5, isnt the be all and end of all of sporting sponsorships.

[climb]

Top Respect for your views D.R.T., but I keep mine.

IRL hosted:

13 events in 2001
15 events in 2002
16 events in 2003
16 events in 2004
17 events in 2005
14 events in 2006
17 events in 2007
16 events in 2008

Can you see thru these numbers the signs of a "decline"? I can't, I just see normal fluctuations. Did IRL have problems with sponsors when they cut 3 races in 2006? Absolutely not, let alone if they cut just one.

BTW more or less the races, all the scheduled events have been respected, that's what sponsors care, D.R.T.

And if a midfield Indy campaign can be attractive for a CC team to convince some companies to sponsor a whole CC season, well, it means that CC 's conditions are even worse than we IRL alqaidists supposed

[luke]

I personally think the IRL schedule is well balanced and strong however I do think its a great shame there are too many flat out ovals, no phoenix, Fontana or Michigan anymore.

[climb]

Good point luke,

I think though that those kinds of tracks were particularly important when IRL used to go 100% oval; now that a fair share of races is held on road and street circuits, the possibility "to drive" is already guaranteed, and the ovals do what they are basically meant to, i.e. be moments of pure speed.

[Mystery]

Originally Posted by NAC

You guys lost me ages ago, I thought this was a discussion about "Newman/Haas end IRL rumour" or is this just a cover in order to have discussion about IRL vs CC. If so who's winning

Don't know but I suspect it'll end in a double count out

[enemy-ace]

Originally Posted by NAC

If so who's winning

Certainly not me! You?

[stradlin21]

Originally Posted by climb

Good point luke,

I think though that those kinds of tracks were particularly important when IRL used to go 100% oval; now that a fair share of races is held on road and street circuits, the possibility "to drive" is already guaranteed, and the ovals do what they are basically meant to, i.e. be moments of pure speed.

there is still Milwaukee, Richmond and Iowa for short oval fans

shame that Mich is gone though, big time shame