Moss, Stirling (Sir)

[Yves]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
and don't forget he was a works rally driver too... won, I think, three Coupes des Alpes in a row.

Having finished three time in a row the Alpes Rally without penalty, he has been awarded with a Coupe d'or, the only second one in the rally history after Maurice Gastonides.
Paddy Hopkirk, a professionnal rallymen only got a Coupe d'Argent for three non consecutive Coupe des Alpes.

http://www.smithmaps.fsnet.co.uk/alpinerallytext.htm

Y.

[stevebrown]

I too was at the '98 Revival and remember that drive in the DBR1. It was something special. But what about his drive the following year in a 250F racing from 17th to 4th in the wet. Shows what a great driver he is even in his 70's.
I also remember in '98 I was marshalling at the old post 5, just before the left-hander at St Mary's,(now post 6). That year there was no proper tyre wall along the bank but for one section of blue/white painted tyres. I was standing there on the Sunday morning with another marshal when Stirling did some parade laps in a Ferrari GTO. He waved as he went round. On the last lap we noticed he had stopped waving. Past the flag point, didn't wave; past the observers post, didn't wave but when he came to us he waved. (There were no spectators there at that time). We were bemused by this.

After the meeting I went to the presentation where I met Stirling. Despite him looking tired he was happy to chat. I asked him about this, saying I noticed he had stopped waving until he got to us. His reply was that he had only found out that weekend where he had had his big accident in '62. It was right where we were standing, the area marked by the blue/white tyres. He just thought he had to give us a wave in case he visited there again. I just said well I glad we didn't meet up. He was very grateful to the marshals for helping the meeting go well and shook MY hand. What a gentleman. I didn't get his autograph that day; too excited meeting him. I did get it two years later at Goodwood. It's in the race card along with Sir Jack Brabham, Derek Bell and Carroll Shelby. And I'm not selling.
I don't remember his hey day. I wasn't even born when his career ended at Goodwood but what I've seen of him race in his later years, he deserves the title Legend.

Steve B

[D-Type]

Yves,
I don't wish too sound pedantic, but the website you linked to does not tell an accurate story.
In the Alpine Rally, or to give it it's proper name the Coupe des Alpes, several competitors would finish with a penalty free run. Positions were determined by a "figure of merit" decided by the results of special stages but I don't know the details. A penalty free run earned a Coupe d'Alpes. To win a Coupe d'Or (gold cup) a competitor had to earn three successive coupes or penalty free runs. Three non consecutive coupes earned a Coupe d'Argent (silver cup).
Ian and Pat Appleyard were the first to win a Coupe d'Or with successive wins in 1950, 51 and 52 driving a Jaguar XK120. Stirling Moss was the only other winner of a Coupe d'Or with clean sheets in 1952, 53 and 54 driving Sunbeam Talbots. Maurice Gatsonides won a Coupe des Alpes in 1952 and was second overall but never a Coupe d'Or though he may have won a Coupe d'Argent.

To return to the main theme.
One reason Moss is still so highly rated was his versatility. He seemed to be capable of winning in everything:
His well-documented 16 Grand Prix wins from 66 starts.
3 consecutive Nurburgring 1000 kms.
7 TT wins.
The Mille Miglia.
Winning the Sebring 12 hours in a privately owned 1500cc OSCA beating the works Lancias, Aston Martins, Austin healeys, and cunnunghams and the semi-works Ferraris. Although he never won Le Mans he was 2nd once and always a contendor.
The Coupe d'Or mentioned above.
2nd in the Monte Carlo rally
5 World Class G speed records at over 200 mph in an MG streamliner,
etc, etc

As to popularity, TimD has said it all. He was a public personality before the term was invented. He was the first British winner of the British GP. He was the first British winner of a championship Grand Prix in a British car.

Yes I am a Moss fan and have been one for nearly 50 years. Even if he never won in a D-Type Jaguar!

[Yves]

Originally posted by D-Type
Yves,
I don't wish too sound pedantic, but the website you linked to does not tell an accurate story.

No problem, I gave the first link to an english web i found, sorry for the unaccurate stuff

I tried to retrieve a story I read about Stirling, when he was lost in a desert for many hours.
I think it was with a 300 SL but cannot get it.
Does that ring something to anybody ?

Y.

[TimD]

Yes, that's the 1974 World Cup Rally - the car involved was a W115-series Mercedes 280E, crewed by Stirling, Michael Taylor and Allan Sell.

The car had electrical failure in the Sahara between Tamanrasset and the North African coast, and the crew were forced to sit tight with the wreck for a day and a half before the rally's straggler-recovery crew turned up with a Land Rover.

[Vitesse]

Originally posted by D-Type
Lee Janotta, read the Stirling Moss thread if you want to get some idea of why we reckon him one of the greats. When you look at the statistics remember that his 16 Grand Prix wins took place when there were 8 or 9 races in a championship season so would be equivalent to twice that number today.

... and also bear in mind that he drove top-line works cars in F1 for only four seasons - 1955 for Mercedes, 1956 for Maserati, 1957-8 for Vanwall. He then joined Rob Walker's team, for whom he had already won the 1958 Argentine GP. This was the first win for both Walker and Cooper and was a tactical masterpiece, in which Moss successfully hoodwinked the opposition into thinking that he had to stop for tyres and/or fuel. In fact, he ran non-stop, the little Cooper-Climax being much less thirsty than the Ferraris and Maseratis. He finished the race with the fabric showing through the rubber ....

[AllonFS]

In a recent Motorsport there was an article about that first win for the Cooper. Stirling actually had someone placed at a slow corner to signal to him when the white fabric started to show through the tyres. He actually planned for that happening. With the lead he had built up he was able to back off and nurse the car home.

[krt917]

D-Type (cool name by the way) seems to have put it all very well. I would just like to add:
Yes, he did win 3 consecutive 1000kms at the Nurburgring, but he won it 4 times in total:
1956 - Maserati 300S
1958-59 - Aston Martin DBR1/300
1960 - Maserati 'Birdcage'
Personally, I think it's the way he won his races that made him so great. He either disappeared into the distance (eg. Pescara '57 - beat Fangio by about 4 min. I think), won in an uncompetitive car (back to the OSCA, Lotus 18 wins etc.), or came back from nowhere after an early problem ('57 Aintree, '59 Nurburgring, '59 TT......)

Whenever you read comments by the drivers who had to race against him, they all know that he was the best, the benchmark, irrespective of the fact that he never won the F1 title.

[ss_collins]

well hes a jolly nice chap.

[D-Type]

I tried to retrieve a story I read about Stirling, when he was lost in a desert for many hours.
I think it was with a 300 SL but cannot get it.

Purely by coincidence this month's (March) Motor Sport has a letter describing the incident.

[KA]

Originally posted by D-Type

To return to the main theme.
One reason Moss is still so highly rated was his versatility. He seemed to be capable of winning in everything:
His well-documented 16 Grand Prix wins from 66 starts.
3 consecutive Nurburgring 1000 kms.
7 TT wins.
The Mille Miglia.
Winning the Sebring 12 hours in a privately owned 1500cc OSCA beating the works Lancias, Aston Martins, Austin healeys, and cunnunghams and the semi-works Ferraris. Although he never won Le Mans he was 2nd once and always a contendor.
The Coupe d'Or mentioned above.
2nd in the Monte Carlo rally
5 World Class G speed records at over 200 mph in an MG streamliner,
etc, etc

That sheer versatility- apparently being willing to race almost anything (and usually win in it) is one of the things that always amazes me, particularly compared with the present day when F1 drivers in particular rarely venture away from F1. I think I read somewhere that Moss had raced something like 80-90 different types of car during his career- and it's still increasing....

[Aysedasi]

Is there anyone whio isn't a Stirling Moss fan? Anyone who has a single bad word to say about him? I rather doubt it. How many drivers can you think of over the years who have endeared themselves in such a way to not only motor racing fans, but so many others. Wonderful thread. Great man.

[jetsetter]

Having the opportunity to see Moss up close in the Historics at the Australian Grand Prix every year i've got to say that the man's remarkable with the way he alway's has time for his many fan's & the way he can still throw a car around at his ripe old age all the time winning a new generation of fans.

[Peter Mallett]

He never really got to grips with modern technology. The story about his time in the BTCC with Audi demonstrates this. His idea of setting up was to adjust the tyre pressures. So the team would pretend to adjust the pressures by making hissing noises just to convince him that the was changing the car. Then he'd go out and race to the best of his ability.

It really demonstrated that a man of his calibre would make a car work no matter how "bad" it was. Hence the wins in uncompetitive machinery.

The other thing he never got along with was the panel bashing which became prevalent in tin top racing.

All-in-all though I believe he tried to come back from his accident too early and so the chance to put more international wins on the books was lost to us.

He is a good bloke though. I've had the priveledge of meeting him (and Tony Brooks) on a few occasions.

[gfm]

At a function the other day and Stirling Moss asked Ross Brawn what actually the driver did in a corner nowdays. Just opened the throttle and pointed the car where he wanted it to go? Could he slide it asked Moss?
When Ross took a moment and said 'well, yes, and no he couldn't provoke it into a slide actually, the electrics sorted it out', Stirling fell silent 'Oh ...'

[Vitesse]

Originally posted by Peter Mallett

All-in-all though I believe he tried to come back from his accident too early and so the chance to put more international wins on the books was lost to us.

Agreed 100%. I think even Stirling admits that.

In 1962 when he had his accident Rob Walker had negotiated to run a Ferrari 156 for Stirling - in the event, the deal fell through because of the shunt. The car would have been run out of Walker's premises, not Maranello, so Stirling would have avoided the internal problems which plagued Ferrari in 1962 and there's no reason to think that Alf Francis couldn't have got more out of it than Ferrari did in the second half of the season.

Overall, Ferrari had a lousy year as the team disintegrated due to the factionalism brought about by the ATS split, but at the start of the season it looked very much like 1961 all over again: after three races Phil Hill was second in the championship with 14 points. He didn't score again ....

So, what price a fit Moss in a well-fettled and sorted Ferrari 156/62? The following year Surtees arrived at Maranello and put them on the winning trail again with the 158. Then came the 1512 ....

It's one of my abiding fantasies ... Moss in a Walker Ferrari, Clark in the Lotus, Hill in the BRM and Surtees in the works Ferrari fighting it out for the championship in 1963, 1964, 1965 ....

Moss was still at his peak when Hill and Clark were coming to the fore: it's a mouthwatering prospect! My personal opinion is that Stirling would have raced in F1 until maybe 1968, so we'd have seen him up against Wee Jackie as well. But he'd have run sports cars longer than that - he always loved the long races and I can see him relishing the prospect of the 917/512 battles.

[AllonFS]

Another couple of Moss entries:
Argentine GP 59 or 60 I think: Tyres down to fabric as Moss takes first win for rear-engined GP cars (and don't mention Auto-Unions, you all know what I mean)
German GP 61: Another win for Moss in the old Cooper against the sharknose Ferraris. Superb driving and a bit of luck from the weather but still magnifcent.

[John Turner]

It was Argentina in 1958; he caught all the opposition on the hop because they expected him to come in for tyres, but, as you say, he stayed out with tyres practically worn through. By the time they had realised, it was too late.

Agree with Germany '61; another great Moss victory.

[krt917]

There are several Moss candidates, 1958 Argentina being one of the ones I believe you are referring to AllonFS. Rob Walker's team tricked the opposition by appearing to plan for a tyre change, but the Cooper wheels were unsuitable (i.e. the stop would have been too long) and Moss stayed out, whilst everyone else pitted. Using oil patches to try and preserve the tyres, he just held on for the first of his four World Championship GP wins that season. Moss was probably the only driver around at the time who could have done that, and he pulled it off again at Monza in 1959 (I suspect that got Enzo's attention!). It's also worth remembering that it wasn't even a full 2.5-litre Cooper he used in Argentina, either!

Drat, Dad beat me to it!

[AllonFS]

Thanks guys, 58 it was of course. Strangely it never seems to get a great deal of attention, but both for the actual drive and of course the huge significance of the car it really stands out for me. I wonder if it is because it happened in Argentina and therefore not many European commentators witnessed it?

[John Turner]

You're right; it does not get the level of acknowledgement or attention it merits.

[Gavin4BRM]

A few years ago, I was testing at Cadwell Park. in front of me in the assembly area driving a sports car (sorry don't remember what) was Sir Stirling Moss. We all proceeded out and did our thing, a few laps later as I came out of Barn corner, I started to catch the sports car. As we drew towards the start finish line, a little black gloved hand appeared out of the cockpit pointing for me to pass on the inside. I passed raising my hand in acknowledgement. I wanted to stop and tell the world. This was actually a better feeling than winning my first race. Lots of drivers win races, very few have the honour of sharing the same track with such a legend.

[D-Type]

I know this isn't "Information" as requested by John, but I feel I should share this quote I read the other day:

The 1955 Mille Miglia was won by Denis Jenkinson in a chauffeur-driven Mercedes-Benz 300SL

Some chauffeur!


In fairness to the writer, I should point out that the he does know what he's talking about and wrote this for effect


John, feel free to delete this if you see fit

[ensign14]

That is genius.

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by D-Type

John, feel free to delete this if you see fit

No way; it's all part of the legend!