IRL on road courses in the future.

[slicktoast]

Why?

[ghinzani]

I refer the honourable member for Axtel, Ohio to the answer I gave some moments ago : http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...threadid=27812

[ghinzani]

ghinzani [ ]
Veteran

Posts: 914


ahh 914, my second faveourite Porsche. Just thought I would capture the moment as I missed 911.

[rush1]

If tony george thought adding road races would kill CART next year I am sure he would do it. He will not add so many that European and South American drivers can use the IRL to reach F1.

Anyways, toyota and honda can finish off CART.

[tanalised]

Originally posted by rush1
[
Anyways, toyota and honda can finish off CART. [/B]

Um, how Rush 1. They've gone from CART.

[BootsOntheSide]

Money comes and money goes. Tony George may be feeding them well enough, and they may be bribing teams to get them to go to IRL, but what happens when they've won the 500 (which is all they care about)?

The new generation of IRL cars have been built to be road-course suited, and I have no doubt that there will be some for 2004, and it'll be interesting to see what effect that has. It will completely move the IRL away from what it originally aimed to be, but I don't expect it to kill CART. In a year's time CART will be strong again.

I have removed some of your comments Boots , as it is not constructive criticism but just a cheap shot at the IRL and the george family

[rush1]

Tanalised, Toyota and Honda could could offer incentives like free engines and cash to move the likes of Mr. Haas, Rahal and Nunn to the IRL. They could also insist these owners not field a car in any other seies as a condition of their support. This could sink CART.

If Toyota and Honda wins the 500 they will probably come back the next year and try to win it again. Both companies are interested in selling cars in the states and winning the Indianapolis 500 gives a company more publicity than a CART championship.

[tanalised]

Originally posted by rush1


If Toyota and Honda wins the 500 they will probably come back the next year and try to win it again. Both companies are interested in selling cars in the states and winning the Indianapolis 500 gives a company more publicity than a CART championship.

Right then Rush, following your reasoning, what do you think happens after that? Heres the answer, they'll move onto NASCAR, and they won't be doing the IRL any favours.

[racer69]

Originally posted by BootsOntheSide
The new generation of IRL cars have been built to be road-course suited, and I have no doubt that there will be some for 2004, and it'll be interesting to see what effect that has. It will completely move the IRL away from what it originally aimed to be, but I don't expect it to kill CART. In a year's time CART will be strong again.

As far as i know the IRL was never aimed to be an all oval series. Just because they have always raced on them, doesn't mean that is all they will do. When the IRL was first announced in 1994 weren't road courses mentioned as being part of the series. Same with drivers, it was never meant to be an 'all american' series, there have been international drivers from the start, it was meant to provide an avenue for American drivers to go to. Would we have heard of Sam Hornish, Tony Stewart etc...

Also, what is the big deal about TG using the IRL's money to fund teams (i hardly think he would dip into his personal accounts). They obviously have the money to do so, so why not use it, it is obviously working, and CART is doing the same thing.

As for Toyota and Honda, the point is they are here now, things can change between now and 2006 or whenever

[Rick]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ghinzani
[B]ghinzani [ ]
Veteran

Posts: 914


ahh 914, my second faveourite Porsche.

Please tell me you're kidding!
930, 935, 356, 917, 956, 959, 928(?), its a long list!

[ghinzani]

Nope - 911, 914 (914/6 preferably) - Im not including race cars, too many good uns! 908, 934, 935, CK-5 !

[tanalised]

would they change the engine specs to run on a road course or just keep them detuned at about 10 000 rpm as usual. So everyone can run beside each other without actually passing

[gofastturnleft]

Originally posted by tanalised
would they change the engine specs to run on a road course or just keep them detuned at about 10 000 rpm as usual. So everyone can run beside each other without actually passing

The concept that an IRL car could not run on road courses is and has been BS. As with any race engine in any series they are tuned for optimal performance for the situation. Currently the cars are tuned with a fairly thin power band as is needed for most oval tracks. Changing the cam lift and duration, a little fuel mapping modifications, etc and you have an engine that would perform quite well over a broad powerband which would be desired for a road course.

Few people actually fall for that hogwash that an IRL package could not run on a road course.

As far as "detuned" goes, I don't think you understand the concept. Detuning is the act of deliberating minimalizing the performance by choosing inferior parts or settings. An IRL engine is tuned and the parts are chosen to maximize performance of an engine at a certain specification. As always the last .1 percent of improvement is what wins the race whether you are racing a Box Stock Briggs, Top Fuel dragster or an IRL car. Those that get caught up in the fact that the IRL chooses to run a rev limiter seem to ignore this fact.

Dan


www.tracksideonline.com

[tanalised]

so what do you think? Will they change the engine specs for road course running?
(By the way) Great answer Gofastturnleft. I admit I'm very ignorant of the IRL type formula

[gofastturnleft]

If road courses are added to the schedule (something I am not in favor of BTW) I'd expect changes to be made accordingly to make the package work best in that environment. Brian Barnhart has done an excellent job in evaluating new situations and I don't see this challenge being any different than when they added tracks like Gateway or Fontana.

What you will see happen is a lot of computer modeling to determine characteristics that need ot be addressed. The technical folks at the IRL will make an initial round of adjustments for the scenario and then arrange testing of these changes to see how reality compares to the modeling. Then another round of changes will likely occur. This will continue up to and through the first event at a particular track.

I would imagine that the rev limit is something they will consider manipulating if need be. Running these engines at higher RPMs shouldn't be an issue as it won't be sustained periods at the top limit. They will run up to the rev limiter frequently on a road course but will only see short bursts of running at the edge. The higher RPM's therefor should not effect durability.

One thing you have to consider when talking of the IRL rules package is that Barnhart has the final say. While he seems to do a good job in collecting and assesing feedback from all parties involved he is not bound to any of them in his final decission. If he determines that a change is needed to improve the safety and/or racing at a particular venue then he has the power to make it happen.

What you won't see happen is a fundamental change in the parameters of the engines themselves. Tweaking of rev limiters,etc is a very real option but you won't see a change that will cause the teams or manufacturers to throw money away for single use engines. He has been consistent in this area since Day 1 of the IRL.

Dan

www.tracksideonline.com

[tanalised]

Your not interested in the road courses at all?

How much testing would need to be done to evaluate a course for the Irl cars and engines do you think?

[rustyfan]

Back when "indycar" (or what to call it) was under USAC sanctioning (do correct me if I'm totally out to lunch on this heh), didn't they primarily run on ovals and only include a select few road courses on the schedule, just as the IRL might look in 2004?

Personally I think it's an interesting development - I just hope they pick some good tracks to race on if they get around to adding some road courses.

Road America, Watkins Glen and Lime Rock would be my top three picks.

[gofastturnleft]

I'm not anti-road course, just anti-road course in the IRL. ;<) I think the IRL is doing a great job when it comes to oval track racing. They have created a package that is wihout compare in terms of exciting racing. They have pushed safety improvements to a level never before seen in oval track racing, Indycars in particular. I would hate to see that package compromised by throwing a couple of raod courses in to the mix. I beleive in the theory of deciding what it is you do and then doing it well.

I also believe that there are way too many great North American road courses to limit Indycars to just 2-4 of them. There should be a serious dedicated road racing series that fills this niche. Imagine the possibilities - Road America, Road Atlanta, Sebring, Lime Rock, VIR, Mosport, Laguna Seca, Mexico City, Montreal, Portland, Sears Point, Watkins Glen, Mid Ohio and even a road race at Long Beach for starters. There is a fourteen race schedule that would be embraced by the industry and fans. I used the phrase Formula America before, not sure if I stole if from someone else or not but it sure works.

I'm not against racing outside of North America with a series like this but like with the IRL I think you have to take care of your roots first and then branch out if it makes sense.

As far as testing goes, I think that the issue could be addressed in only a few private tests to nail the package down. Then if the IRL held true to form they would hold some (one or two) open testing sessions where all teams would be invited. More people equals more feedback. A package could easily be ready for 2004 if they feel the need.

Rustyfan is right, under USAC sanction Indycars did have some road races on the schedule like some are thinking the IRL may look like in 2004. I hold out hope that two distinct series are maintained though. For the teams and crews employed in CART and the IRL right now as much as for the fans.

Dan

www.tracksideonline.com

[Lee Janotta]

Just a little note from the front lines... The question shouldn't be so much whether IRL cars and drivers can run on road courses, but whether anyone will want to see them.

The Cleveland promoters were in talks with Tony George a few years ago to run Burke Lakefront Airport as a weird-shaped flat oval... And the locals raised absolute hell, because they liked CART and wanted to keep it here.

[B/Mark]

Surely there is nothing wrong with the IRL taking on some road courses - the setup alts to the cars would be easy enough - it would also make the series more interesting for the more able drivers. It doesn't have to be against CART - no one complains that CART runs some ovals. Just a natural development for the series.