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Old 31 May 2019, 12:21 (Ref:3907161)   #211
broadrun96
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Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
It was not an unsafe release, that refers to the condition of the car. It was a release that could endanger pit lane personnel or another driver.

There is a clear difference between the two circumstances in the regulations, and associated penalties.
Actually the direct rule you quoted does say unsafe release for the event in question. The previous regulation listed refers to unsafe CONDITION, that is usually for mechanical problem, wheel nut etc. If you wish to be pedantic you should read the actual words you typed.

And also, Monaco does have very specific conditions from the FIA regarding the track status and its allowance on the FIA calendar for F1. Most everything about the track requires a variance from the rules including length, run-off areas, pit lane entry time and yes width is covered, and the podium ceremony is spelled out in the rules. To argue making rules for one track is unnecessary when there already are a multitude for the exact track is beyond insane, it's exactly what the FIA has done.
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Old 31 May 2019, 12:55 (Ref:3907167)   #212
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Originally Posted by broadrun96 View Post
Actually the direct rule you quoted does say unsafe release for the event in question. The previous regulation listed refers to unsafe CONDITION, that is usually for mechanical problem, wheel nut etc. If you wish to be pedantic you should read the actual words you typed.
The full text for article 28.13 a) reads:
'Cars must not be released from a garage or pit stop position in way that could endanger pit lane personnel or another driver. Competitors must provide a means of clearly establishing, when being viewed from both above and in the front of the car, when a car was released.'

I am not seeing the words 'unsafe', let alone 'unsafe release' within article 28.13 a)?


Articles 28.13 b) through d) all use the phrase 'released in an unsafe condition' That is different to saying 'unsafe release'. So yes, I do wish to be pedantic on this because I feel it is important in the context of application of the regulations to the incident that was the origin of this discussion. Verstappen's car was not in an unsafe condition, so I struggle to see why the term 'unsafe release' is being used.

Could you please point me to the part of the regulations where the phrase 'unsafe release' is used?
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Old 31 May 2019, 14:57 (Ref:3907178)   #213
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speaking for myself, but i read 'unsafe conditions' and 'unsafe release' as essentially being synonymous phrases.
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Old 31 May 2019, 15:02 (Ref:3907182)   #214
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Actually no, I think unsafe condition refers to the state of the car such as loose wheel, etc. Unsafe release would be to release the car directly into the path of a car in the "fast lane" of the pit road causing that car to swerve or take other evasive action, such as fly.
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Old 31 May 2019, 15:10 (Ref:3907183)   #215
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Ooh, a rules and language quibble, what fun

The term "unsafe release" has been around and in common usage in F1 for many years.

I've got copies of the SRs back a few years and 28.13 (a) used to say (in 2016/2017):

Quote:
Originally Posted by FIA F1 Sporting Regulations 2017
It is the responsibility of the competitor to release his car from his garage or pit stop position only when it is safe to do so.
Ergo, to breach that the term would be that the release was not safe - unsafe. The wording changed for the 2018 SRs to use the words already quoted, with "endanger" in the stead of "safe". The intent of the rule has been flipped - you must not cause any danger, rather than you must do things safely.

In the current version of the International Sporting code, there's a clause in the PENALTIES section:

Quote:
Originally Posted by FIA International Sporting Code 2019
12.1.1 Any of the following offences, in addition to any offences specifically referred to previously, shall be deemed to be a breach of these rules:

12.1.1.h Any unsafe act or failure to take reasonable measures, thus resulting in an unsafe situation.
So there's a general clause in the ISC, and a specific point in the F1 SRs.

Teams must not cause a dangerous situation; to do so is an unsafe act. So everyone is right, hooray!

Is everyone bored yet?

EDIT: Peter is bang on, too, but I'll leave the clauses about cars themselves being in unsafe conditions for a rainy day...
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Old 31 May 2019, 15:12 (Ref:3907184)   #216
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Old 31 May 2019, 21:43 (Ref:3907211)   #217
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Originally Posted by Greem View Post
Ooh, a rules and language quibble, what fun

The term "unsafe release" has been around and in common usage in F1 for many years.

I've got copies of the SRs back a few years and 28.13 (a) used to say (in 2016/2017):



Ergo, to breach that the term would be that the release was not safe - unsafe. The wording changed for the 2018 SRs to use the words already quoted, with "endanger" in the stead of "safe". The intent of the rule has been flipped - you must not cause any danger, rather than you must do things safely.

In the current version of the International Sporting code, there's a clause in the PENALTIES section:



So there's a general clause in the ISC, and a specific point in the F1 SRs.

Teams must not cause a dangerous situation; to do so is an unsafe act. So everyone is right, hooray!

Is everyone bored yet?

EDIT: Peter is bang on, too, but I'll leave the clauses about cars themselves being in unsafe conditions for a rainy day...
Greem, I appreciate the clarity you bring here, and accept that I had not considered the ISC in my previous posts.

A query if I may, does the ISC state a typical penalty for the 'unsafe' clause?
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Old 1 Jun 2019, 08:42 (Ref:3907260)   #218
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Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
Greem, I appreciate the clarity you bring here, and accept that I had not considered the ISC in my previous posts.

A query if I may, does the ISC state a typical penalty for the 'unsafe' clause?
No, the ISC Article 12 outlines the reasons for penalising entrants/teams/drivers etc, details the potential penalties available to clerks of the course and/or stewards, and details the application of penalties, levying of fines, appeal process for penalties/fines/suspensions and so on.

It is then added to, superseded (potentially; I haven't yet seen a series with regs that do that) or amended by individual series' sporting regulations. In the case of F1, the 2019 SRs section 38.3 detail the application of penalties for "any driver involved in an Incident".

The current SRs provide a bit more detail to the penalties listed in the ISC, with specific clarifications for safety car or VSC situations and other specific F1 situations.

The absolute minimum penalty for a driver involved in an Incident (FIA capitalisation as it refers to a definition in the SRs and the ISC) is a 5 second time penalty. There is no specific reference to a penalty for unsafe release.

So.... the penalty given to Verstappen was the absolute minimum that could be applied under the current rules and therefore pretty fair, in my opinion. The 'danger' side of things was about as mild as it could be, given the outcome.

If anyone's feeling academic, try and determine when the current cascade of 5s/10s/drive-through/10s stop-go penalties came into being
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Old 1 Jun 2019, 13:49 (Ref:3907269)   #219
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I believe it was relatively recently and the rationale was two fold for the time penalties. Firstly is provided an option for a penalty that was less than a stop go or drive through. It is also more consistent across circuits, as a drive through could be a really small penalty at a circuit like Silverstone. So you might give a drive through or stop go and the impact could vary by many seconds depending on circuit. I suppose also it clarified, or at least made it more consistent, about what you do if a penalty is given out near the end.

Edit: 2014? https://sidepodcast.com/post/permane...oints-cost-cap
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Old 2 Jun 2019, 08:25 (Ref:3907467)   #220
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