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Old 12 Jun 2019, 08:04 (Ref:3909492)   #181
Anyopenroad
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Originally Posted by Purist View Post
No, AOR, it's that we want to see the race, see the on-track result reflected in the final scoring, and I think a lot of us are wondering where it ends. Will they penalize someone for spinning because another driver had to evade?
Took me a while to realise I was AOR! I've become a type of music :-/

Obviously the entire situation is very sad for the sport and no-one thinks it's a good look. I was merely arguing that, aside from that, the actual end result was just because it was Vettel who made the mistake. Of course the stewards don't take that or the wider ramifications for the sport into account so the point is tangential to discussion about the merits of the penalty.

No, you don't penalise a driver who spins and forces another to evade because the spinning driver has been punished by losing places. Hence my observation that had there been no wall and Hamilton had been able to pass, Vettel's 'punishment' would have been to lose the place. There probably would have been no investigation at all.

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Going on from there, somewhat, hammer every Hamilton lock-up as much as you do anyone else's "mistake".
Should a Hamilton lock-up or other mistake result in him losing a place or losing a chance to overtake then absolutely, he would be to blame for the consequence of the mistake. In fact didn't that happen recently? Hamilton chasing Bottas down and locking up to lose momentum and thus the chance to overtake? His fault alone.

It's worth adding that the stewards are very clear that they punished the additional steering input from Vettel which took him to the right, after he had regained control. Thus it's not the mistake itself which is being punished, it's the subsequent deliberate action.

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And I don't know that anybody has "legitimate" title aspirations anymore; this latest result just puts another nail in the coffin, with the message of "the Mercedes can't be beaten"...Regardless, I'm already well into the realm of hopeless inevitability that Mercedes, and probably Hamilton, will win everything, indefinitely.
I can't help but feel that a lot of the anger over this is a result of that despair rather than a cold hard analysis of the stewards' actual decision. But in any event, my point was that Vettel is a driver (and Ferrari is a team) who enter each season aspiring to win titles and each race intending to win, and the standards expected of them are therefore utterly unforgiving. Both Vettel and Ferrari have consistently fallen below those standards at crucial moments and Vettel's mistake here was another example of that, a fact which is being lost in the furore over the decision.
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Old 12 Jun 2019, 10:38 (Ref:3909507)   #182
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Originally Posted by Anyopenroad View Post
I can't help but feel that a lot of the anger over this is a result of that despair rather than a cold hard analysis of the stewards' actual decision. But in any event, my point was that Vettel is a driver (and Ferrari is a team) who enter each season aspiring to win titles and each race intending to win, and the standards expected of them are therefore utterly unforgiving. Both Vettel and Ferrari have consistently fallen below those standards at crucial moments and Vettel's mistake here was another example of that, a fact which is being lost in the furore over the decision.
Personally, I think deep inside Vettel's anger was not directed at the stewards but at the fact that he again made a mistake at a crucial moment, which is contributing to the fact he's not going to be WC with Ferrari this way.

I must be hard being a 4 time WC thinking you're the best in the world and then by your own contribution show that your not as good as you thought when your not in a superieur car.
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Old 12 Jun 2019, 13:27 (Ref:3909523)   #183
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No, you don't penalise a driver who spins and forces another to evade because the spinning driver has been punished by losing places. Hence my observation that had there been no wall and Hamilton had been able to pass, Vettel's 'punishment' would have been to lose the place. There probably would have been no investigation at all.
Yes, that seems to be the case, but do you know if there is anything in the regulations about that? Playing Devil's Advocate here, is there a case for saying that a driver should still be penalised for re-entering the track in a dangerous manner and causing another driver to take evasive action if that evasive action leads to them getting past and getting the advantage? Because the principle that it was a dangerous action is still the same.
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Old 12 Jun 2019, 14:06 (Ref:3909534)   #184
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Playing Devil's Advocate here, is there a case for saying that a driver should still be penalised for re-entering the track in a dangerous manner and causing another driver to take evasive action if that evasive action leads to them getting past and getting the advantage? Because the principle that it was a dangerous action is still the same.
Yes, assuming Vettel's actions (meaning, the additional steering move to the right, which is what he was punished for) were identical then presumably he could have been subject to the same sanction even if there had not been a wall and Hamilton had gone by. In practice I doubt this would have happened, but you are right that by the letter of the rules the end result (Hamilton past or not) is not relevant to the 'offence'.
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Old Yesterday, 00:33 (Ref:3910251)   #185
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Courtesy of someone on reddit...rear mounted camera from Norris' car. Kind of a cool angle of the failure.

https://streamable.com/x0pe5
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Old Yesterday, 10:11 (Ref:3910309)   #186
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Really could see the load being put on it before it broke properly
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Old Today, 01:09 (Ref:3911412)   #187
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A rather good analysis of the Vettel penalty imo from Chainbear.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvBKv5jPvrk
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Old Today, 01:12 (Ref:3911417)   #188
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Courtesy of someone on reddit...rear mounted camera from Norris' car. Kind of a cool angle of the failure.

https://streamable.com/x0pe5
Magnificent heal and toe technique going down through the gearbox under braking!
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