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Old 28 Dec 2018, 20:25 (Ref:3872881)   #1
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Are F1 teams now too big?

I was reading Claire Williams comment that even triple their budget would not have improved their car so fundamentally bad was their car, but she was sure that their review of the business would see their 650 employees do a better job in 2019 - or words to that effect. But added that they were under resourced..

Is it not staggering that an independent team like Williams has 650 staff to put two cars on the grid for a season, yet buys in an engine and associated ancillaries, yet needs more to compete?

Is it sustainable?

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Old 28 Dec 2018, 23:30 (Ref:3872903)   #2
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I am told there is nothing wrong with F1? I have decided to just enjoy the suck!

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Old 28 Dec 2018, 23:40 (Ref:3872908)   #3
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If the 650 employees salaries are performance linked then it wouldn't be costing Williams much for last years effort...
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Old 29 Dec 2018, 00:15 (Ref:3872913)   #4
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Really it’s a tough one. Would you really want to make so many staff redundant? Then again, sometimes cutbacks are necessary
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Old 29 Dec 2018, 00:20 (Ref:3872916)   #5
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f1 teams at the pointy end are far, far too big. the majority of those people won't work with the car, and many will be doing work that actually doesn't influence the car running on the circuit in any way. it's bewildering.
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Old 30 Dec 2018, 00:07 (Ref:3873055)   #6
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many will be doing work that actually doesn't influence the car running on the circuit in any way. it's bewildering.
Unless you mean the majority are not involved in servicing and preparing the physical race cars. But you have to bear in mind, F1 teams are HUGE research and development and manufacturing operations.

It's not like a industrial lot race team of 10 people who buy their Porsche Carrera Cup race cars, and simply service them and take it to a race meeting and put it on the track for their customers.

The F1 teams are more like Porsche themselves, designing and building the entire 911 car from scratch and entire 911 engine from drawing board to casting to assembly from scratch too.
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Old 29 Dec 2018, 23:49 (Ref:3873053)   #7
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Is it not staggering that an independent team like Williams has 650 staff to put two cars on the grid for a season, yet buys in an engine and associated ancillaries, yet needs more to compete?

Is it sustainable?
Of course not. But F1 teams will spend however much they can get in a valiant attempt to be as competitive (or in Mercedes' case, as dominant) possible. Go figure!

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the majority of those people won't work with the car,
I'm pretty sure, these people ALL work on the car (hospitality, media, IT & transport dpartments aside), F1 teams & F1 engine manufacturers are not stupid, they are racers' racers. Those hundreds of engineers & technicians are all tinkering away on CAD models and laboratories on how to make improved parts for the cars (whether or not those parts go into production).

F1 teams are fairly barebones operations of hundreds of engineers slogging away on parts for the car (or research on how to make it faster) in a huge open plan space: Here is a Toro Rosso factory tour for example Of course Toro Rosso are one of the smaller teams. Renault, Red Bull and all the rest are similar -- and, in fact, even bigger.

Although Mugen are no longer in F1, the scale of their engine test laboratory gives you an idea of the facilties F1 engine manufacturer's have: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6He25rgnryA Here is Honda's Sakura facility, once again barebones and focused on researching engine parts to go on the car: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAaJYNHG5-Y [Or for the V10 fans, the life of a Honda V10 engine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-2YdVn4n90 ]

Back in 1993, Patrick Head explains that the engineers and technicians can do whatever they want, as long as it's in the direction of making the car faster: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQIPaa7KDTs

I think F1 teams are VERY focused on efficiently working on how to make the car faster in fact, so I strongly disagree with your assertion.

The problem is that most teams design and machine every single nut and bolt themselves, even the gearbox. Red Bull life's of a bolt. When they could buy these in more economically from suppliers, but of course that wouldn't perform as well, so that won't do...

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Old 30 Dec 2018, 00:33 (Ref:3873056)   #8
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F1 teams are fairly barebones operations of hundreds of engineers slogging away on parts for the car (or research on how to make it faster) in a huge open plan space: Here is a Toro Rosso factory tour for example
Oops, sorry that was a tour of some the machining and assembly areas at Toro Rosso.

This is the video of the open plan engineer's office at Toro Rosso, which I meant to post; it also covers the autoclaves and some of the testing laboratories which check parts that have already been used for defects: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUlINLjScjU

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If the 650 employees salaries are performance linked then it wouldn't be costing Williams much for last years effort...
This is the same Williams team, who in 1993 claimed that "F1 is the pinnacle" and they didn't want "the bar of F1 to be artificially lowered" after all.

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Old 30 Dec 2018, 01:16 (Ref:3873063)   #9
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This is the same Williams team, who in 1993 claimed that "F1 is the pinnacle" and they didn't want "the bar of F1 to be artificially lowered" after all.
A team that's winning doesn't want anything to change??

Why, I am shocked, I tell you!
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Old 30 Dec 2018, 11:09 (Ref:3873138)   #10
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Of course not. But F1 teams will spend however much they can get in a valiant attempt to be as competitive (or in Mercedes' case, as dominant) possible. Go figure!
I dont understand why people say this. Do they spend more than the German govt can tax their people. Do they spend more then a trip to space. Do they spend more than it would cost to cure cancer. More than it costs to bio engineer an new humanity?

What rational business thinks this is the best way to invest in the future?

Is there not more money in everything else that matters but yet not enough money to do what is necessary....why dont our govt work like an f1 team and spend every cent they have and build a better future?

Does anyone think ther is more money to be made and spent in F1 then anywhere else ?

Their budget is unlimited right so they can they spend whatever they want where they want right?

But hey its always been about spending 2 billion plus a year right?

I dislike how obtuse this discussion has become...and hiw abstract from reality.

This kind of spending is obscene and if you think the shareholders think differently....well maybe they do cause things have always been this way and f1 is apparently the front end of the greatest technological forefront of human civilization.

I'm super surprised merc gmbh isn't the most coveted stock i the world...they are going to change the world with an internal combustion engine with four rubber shoes....cant wait to see how that plays out.

Like what the **** are we talking about here?

Lets complain about how rubber technology has hit its limit after a few hundred years of rubber being rubber.

I'll keep on watching the sport but I fear this forum has run out of future or interesting points of view

Sorry but true story.
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Old 30 Dec 2018, 11:16 (Ref:3873140)   #11
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Anyways I'm sorry to be so angry of late...but how can we as a group appreciate a technology driven sport while ignoring these issues?
How can we still pretend this is normal?
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Old 30 Dec 2018, 20:38 (Ref:3873200)   #12
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Anyways I'm sorry to be so angry of late...but how can we as a group appreciate a technology driven sport while ignoring these issues?

How can we still pretend this is normal?
Ironically, the manufacturers are largely ignoring the F1 tech and showing their eco credentials in FE, regarding F1 as not high tech or relevant enough. This I believe will see the engine regs remain largely unchanged as the point of 'simplifying them to attract new manufacturers has been negated by lack of interest.

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Old 1 Jan 2019, 00:01 (Ref:3873370)   #13
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I fear this forum has run out of future or interesting points of view
Very true for every forum. The internet has encouraged herd thinking and anyone who has a different point of view is usually ignored. Have a look at the F1 improvement thread and there is a classic example of everyone having very narrow views on the whole thing when in fact the fundamentals are wrong, it is the fundamentals that drive F1 into mediocrity. Fix the fundamental foundation problems and the results will be different, better? that all depends on the humans involved

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Old 30 Dec 2018, 23:18 (Ref:3873213)   #14
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I'm pretty sure, these people ALL work on the car (hospitality, media, IT & transport dpartments aside), F1 teams & F1 engine manufacturers are not stupid, they are racers' racers. Those hundreds of engineers & technicians are all tinkering away on CAD models and laboratories on how to make improved parts for the cars (whether or not those parts go into production).
crikey, are you in charge of a smaller teams hr department or something?

dig into the big teams, particularly mercedes. you'll find people whose job it is to optimise workflows, improve software that reports on particular elements of the process of running a car. it's two or three levels removed from the front line. in fact, a lot of the software teams themselves aren't linked directly to the car firing up and going around in circles. the it side of things - which you handily exclude - is huge. all those complex cad systems need maintaining, developing, investment and improving by someone. those bespoke bits of software need creating, testing and integrating. who d'you think does that? cfd is only going to get more expensive from here. eliminating the development of "x" (whatever it may be) only serves to create multiple times the expense trying to improve the processes around it. see: every time the fia limit development on a particular part to limit downforce, the percentage lost is regained within a season. defeats the object, doesn't it?

it shouldn't take seven hundred people to directly produce a f1 car. that's where the fault is. not with some of the midfield and backmarker teams working with a far more realistic and sustainable budget and workforce.

so yeah, basically what chillibowl said

on a final note, i wonder how much in r&d tax rebates the big british f1 teams get? if the smaller single seater teams running spec cars can be reaching hundreds of thousands per tax year they must be raking it in.
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Old 6 Jan 2019, 18:00 (Ref:3874312)   #15
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it shouldn't take seven hundred people to directly produce a f1 car. that's where the fault is. not with some of the midfield and backmarker teams working with a far more realistic and sustainable budget and workforce.
It shouldn't, yet it does if you want to be competitive.

I would propose making equal FOM payments to all teams, semi-spec aerodynamics with ground effects aero, strict restrictions on the type and number of dampers fitted in the suspension (no fancy heave dampers, front rear interconnect etc), a control gearbox (XTRac or Hewland) and a control turbo (and of course a non-hybrid simple V6 twin turbo, for example, identical to Indycar 2021 2.4L twin turbo V6 with 1000hp, with a price cap on the season lease and a requirement to supply any team who requests a supply).

Yet others are SO against control parts in F1!? How to convince them control parts and nearly spec aero is OK? How to convince them that simple rudimentary Indycar power units are OK?
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Old 6 Jan 2019, 22:12 (Ref:3874348)   #16
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Yet others are SO against control parts in F1!? How to convince them control parts and nearly spec aero is OK? How to convince them that simple rudimentary Indycar power units are OK?

Many attempts have been made to set up semi-spec series over the years which just die away after a little burst of attention?


And that is in spite of them supplying what many here would suggest is what they want in "Good racing". Such series can, and do, continue as National or regional (ie Indy) series but never as the "International peak of the sport" that F1 claims to be.


The advanced technology of F1 is what sets it apart. Any significant watering down of that situation will be opposed by a very significant proportion of the fan base as well as the teams and manufacturers.


The underlying basic problem is that F1 provides both the WDC and the WCC and ther will always be tension between the two. The original concept of F1 was to provide a competition for the WDC. The WCC came later as in the early stages of F1 (1950s) sports car endurance racing was seen as the proper competition for manufacturers and teams to demonstrate superiority.

Maybe moving back to that separated situation has merit?.
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Old 2 Jan 2019, 18:44 (Ref:3873667)   #17
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Apologies for the long post. I have been on a bit of a self imposed forum sabbatical between Christmas and New Year. So lots of thoughts on my end...

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f1 teams at the pointy end are far, far too big.
Agree

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But F1 teams will spend however much they can get in a valiant attempt to be as competitive (or in Mercedes' case, as dominant) possible.
A theme for this post will be that people will spend money if they have it. So teams will grow as large as their funding allows. Success keeps the teams going. So a large monster of a team that is ALSO successful... Well... let them be the poster child for this thread.

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I dont understand why people say this.
So I didn't quote your entire post. As you mention, you are fired up and your comments indicate as much. To be honest, I don't fully understand what your message was. I "think" you are saying that the situation is obscene. It is, but I don't think unique to F1. Look at the tech industry as a whole. I will pick on Apple for a moment. Overpriced product (sorry, to you Apple fans, not trying to pick a fight) while allows for extravagant spending at the corporate level. Spending (UFO HQ anyone?) that is not necessary, but happens because the budget exists to do so.

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F1 teams are fairly barebones operations of hundreds of engineers slogging away on parts for the car (or research on how to make it faster) in a huge open plan space:
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Of course Toro Rosso are one of the smaller teams. Renault, Red Bull and all the rest are similar -- and, in fact, even bigger.
I challenge the "bare-bones" moniker. I suspect that regardless of the industry, if you ask senior management they will claim they are running very efficiently and with as small as staff as they can get by with. I think the reality is the level of funding drives staffing levels in all industries. If you are a highly profitable company, you will grow fat even if you think you are lean. I think a very eye opening experience is to work for a company that is struggling and to see how you can get by on much less. Granted, that is not a recipe for success, but you can see what "bare-bones" really is. Also the disparity in size between teams illustrates that bare-bones does not apply to all. I would say that some of the current teams might be bare-bones in that they are large enough to survive, but that is all they do.

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Here is a Toro Rosso factory tour for example
Thanks. That (the corrected link) was an interesting video.

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The problem is that most teams design and machine every single nut and bolt themselves, even the gearbox.
As crazy as it seems today, I think it could even be worse. Imagine if it was economically feasible for someone like Mercedes to be 2x or 10x! bigger than they are today. Details that today are left unexplored would be examined in a team that size. Impossible you say? Roll the clock back decades. Teams were smaller and the solutions were simpler yet the regulations would have allowed complex solutions (as measured by today's standards). Remember that today is the future as defined yesterday. What will tomorrow look like?

I think I have posted on this next point before, but I love the idea of "The Last Man Who Knew Everything". The book (which I need to read) attributes this to be a British scientist from the late 1700's early 1800's named "Thomas Young". The point is that human knowledge continues to advance and that what could be done (or understood) has grown beyond that of a single individual. I think that broadly speaking, this situation has happened to F1 within the lifetime of participants of this forum. So it is confusing to see this happen and to truly understand what HAS happened.

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it shouldn't take seven hundred people to directly produce a f1 car. that's where the fault is. not with some of the midfield and backmarker teams working with a far more realistic and sustainable budget and workforce.
So regardless of my comments above that the teams will just naturally grow due to the complexity. I agree with bella above. The question is... how to fix this?

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I'll keep on watching the sport but I fear this forum has run out of future or interesting points of view
I have a comment on that topic in the "How to Fix F1?" thread. Specifically what the fans think/want.

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Old 30 Dec 2018, 21:16 (Ref:3873205)   #18
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It definitely seems that manufacturers find FE much more desirable these days, as a better way to show off technology
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Old 1 Jan 2019, 15:47 (Ref:3873443)   #19
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Customer cars would require far less employees.See IndyCar.
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Old 6 Jan 2019, 22:52 (Ref:3874354)   #20
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I think there needs to be the right balance. Clearly there’s too much aero on the current cars. That needs to be reduced. But there also needs to be some challenge technologically
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Old 7 Jan 2019, 10:24 (Ref:3874422)   #21
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I think there needs to be the right balance. Clearly there’s too much aero on the current cars. That needs to be reduced. But there also needs to be some challenge technologically

There is also far too much simulation and honing of the car before it has even turned a wheel at the track. I would ban all circuit to factory contact during the weekend and ban the use of simulators during the GP weekend, so their sim drivers are not trying endless set up changes for the team. Let's just get back to the driver and their race engineer finessing the car during free practice. I would also have a spec tyre for free practice only that is not used in the race so the teams don't collect tyre data and then simulate that before qualifying and the race. We need a few more variables IMO. I would even bring in a spec qualifying tyre to bring in a certain control factor into Q, this would also see the driver start the race on tyres that they have not run on before at the weekend at all.



Apologies for straying OT!
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Old 8 Jan 2019, 17:08 (Ref:3874754)   #22
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There is also far too much simulation and honing of the car before it has even turned a wheel at the track. I would ban all circuit to factory contact during the weekend and ban the use of simulators during the GP weekend, so their sim drivers are not trying endless set up changes for the team. Let's just get back to the driver and their race engineer finessing the car during free practice. I would also have a spec tyre for free practice only that is not used in the race so the teams don't collect tyre data and then simulate that before qualifying and the race. We need a few more variables IMO. I would even bring in a spec qualifying tyre to bring in a certain control factor into Q, this would also see the driver start the race on tyres that they have not run on before at the weekend at all.

Apologies for straying OT!
to make that even more workable the damn things need to be cheaper to run as well and on-track testing expanded. they all employ a second team of spanners already, it’s not as if the staffing requirements would go up. i have absolutely no idea how to make that more achievable though!
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Old 9 Jan 2019, 04:51 (Ref:3874879)   #23
sizzle
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sizzle should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridsizzle should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14...velopment-role

There it is laid out.

Snip
Ferrari made good use of its development team in 2018, bouncing back from difficult Fridays to perform better in qualifying and the race on several occasions.
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The most notable example was the Canadian Grand Prix, where Sebastian Vettel was uncompetitive in Friday practice but went on to qualify on pole and win the race on Sunday.
Asked by Autosport at the 2018 season-ending Abu Dhabi GP how important the right replacements for Giovinazzi and Kvyat (pictured above) would be, Vettel said: "You get the point, it is very important.
"Based on our findings [after practice], we changed the car [for qualifying], both of us did, and it was better and we were happier.
"It's not the first time that this has happened so we're extremely thankful for the guys, taking the time.
"It's not the nicest job on Friday night, especially when you're young, but it's important, it all adds up.
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Old 9 Feb 2019, 09:43 (Ref:3882775)   #24
mstets
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mstets should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
What about a salary cap on teams as a whole? Let them sort out their own priorities vis-Ã*-vis drivers, engineers, mechanics, paper shufflers, etc. Doubtless impractical and unenforceable.
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Old 7 Jan 2019, 10:27 (Ref:3874423)   #25
S griffin
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S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!
And why not limit telemetry while we're at it, then that would put drivers back in charge of knowing what the car is doing
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