Supercars Gen 3 (2022)

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by bathurst77

You mean turn signal indicators. Like all cars (except most BMWs) have

You have that there too? As a Beemer driver, I'd like to point out that everyone who got us a bad name has moved to Audi. Up here, at least.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

It doesn't make a whole lot of sense why ATCC organisers did not opt for a more relevant second vehicle like a Nissan Z? It could have been a nice variety with the Tochigi version of a muscle car going up against the Detroit version (perhaps add the Munich version in there too?), instead of just two same-same Detroit cars.

Do you have to post the exact same thing on every thread?

You have basically been posting this same crap for 2 years.

It's not a reality, and it's not going to be a reality. Maybe go watch SuperGT.

[Ares]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

The parity seems closer to correct, however an Australian Touring Car Championship dominated by the obscure Chevrolet Camaro is really bizarre and of minor interest.

It doesn't make a whole lot of sense why ATCC organisers did not opt for a more relevant second vehicle like a Nissan Z? It could have been a nice variety with the Tochigi version of a muscle car going up against the Detroit version (perhaps add the Munich version in there too?), instead of just two same-same Detroit cars.

The Gen 3 Australian Touring Car seems to have missed the mark and is not going to have people tuning in, it seems.

Supercars did not go for a Nissan Z instead of the Camaro as that would have alienated a large group of the fanbase. The series was not built on Ford vs Nissan. Also, a one make Mustang class is madness.

How people become fans today has changed from the early days of the sport, back when most Australians drove either one of the two brands. How many Ferrari fans drive a Ferrari or have owned a Ferrari, can go, and buy a Ferrari F1 car from their dealer? Or are Italian. How many Man U supporters live in Manchester. All that matters is the cars are fast, look and sound cool with a GM badge. People today want a show, and they got one on Saturday afternoon.

[Just Do It!]

Originally Posted by Woolley

You have that there too? As a Beemer driver, I'd like to point out that everyone who got us a bad name has moved to Audi. Up here, at least.

Me too! AUDI stands for 'Ardly Use Da Indicators. It's to a point where Audi could actually remove the indicator stalk and almost no one would ask where it was. If you see an Audi using indicators, it is usually a rental.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Sandgroper

SO your point is ?

Bad Managment or Driving or you crowing parity?

Just stating a fact.

[Mixer]

After 3 parity adjustment Cam Waters still blaming parity:

https://www.v8sleuth.com.au/waters-s...QaHeFSRnRchp-Q

It's getting silly now.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Ares

The series was not built on Ford vs Nissan.

Yes it was, until a poor set of rules were drafted for 1993. That's not a good explanation as to why there shouldn't be Nissan and BMWs out there, amongst the Mustangs.

Originally Posted by Ares

All that matters is the cars are fast, look and sound cool with a GM badge.

There's no reason for any General Motors badge to be out there: not Chevrolet, not GMC, not Buick, not Oldsmobile, not Pontiac, not Saturn. These brands are not even sold in the Australian market and have no market presence.

Originally Posted by Ares

How many Ferrari fans drive a Ferrari or have owned a Ferrari, can go, and buy a Ferrari F1 car from their dealer? Or are Italian.

The notion that Tifosi wouldn't move on to support Alfa Romeo or AlphaTauri or even a non-Italian team and would stop watching Formula One were Ferrari to leave Formula One is ridiculous.

Notwithstanding that unlike Scuderia Ferrari which still exists, neither Holden Dealer Team nor Holden Racing Team exist anymore (in the latter days a sponsored named attached to an entity that didn't even build the long-associated tuned HDT or HSV respectively road cars anymore -- as analogous to the Ferrari factory), even the Holden brand does not exist anymore.

Originally Posted by Mixer

https://www.v8sleuth.com.au/waters-s...QaHeFSRnRchp-Q

I know they are not the same now and it just needs to get fixed.

- Cameron Waters

A logical statement from Mr. Waters. With this idea of homologating the Chevrolet Camaro on the worry that Holden enthusiasts will stop watching, will the ATCC just lose the interest of all Ford enthusiasts instead? Very smart (not).

Originally Posted by Mixer

It's getting silly now.

Exactly right it's silly. Why is the Camaro even there? Chevrolet are not sponsoring the series. So in that case just run the Z and M4 or M2 and have some nice variety with turbo sixes against the Mustang's V8: a battle of sports coupe touring cars!

Forget technical parity and use BOP to have exciting touring car racing between short wheelbase and long wheelbase vehicles *available on the Australian market* with different strengths, featuring traditional ATCC brands like Nissan, BMW and Ford.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Mixer

After 3 parity adjustment Cam Waters still blaming parity:

https://www.v8sleuth.com.au/waters-s...QaHeFSRnRchp-Q

It's getting silly now.

Well said by Waters.

[bathurst77]

Should individual teams be allowed to run their own aero body kit?
Within a set of parameters (No more than, must fit inside an area) but beyond that the shape you want with cut outs and ducts you want.
Get rid of parity arguments completely and the cars would look different to each other. For sure one or two teams would get it more right than others,, but only on certain tracks.

Look at f1. Williams are lighting in a straight line. Ferrari great under brakes, Redbull amazing with DRS open. So on tight tracks one team might have great downforve, but on high speed open tracks another team might have lesss drag etc etc.

"Cost cost cost!" you cry..
Budget caps like F1.

[Ares]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Yes it was, until a poor set of rules were drafted for 1993. That's not a good explanation as to why there shouldn't be Nissan and BMWs out there, amongst the Mustangs.

Holden fans will support GM. I'm not here to explain anything. I didn't say there shouldn't be Nissan or BMW just the fact is there is not?

You just seem to want to change everything about the series. Different cars, different engines, different brands and different driver...

Like joining a basketball forum and posting, it would be better if they kicked the ball with their feet, better if it was played on grass with goal posts at each end. oh wait a minute? go join the football forum then.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Ares

You just seem to want to change everything about the series. Different cars, different engines, different brands and different driver...

Yes to make it back into something good and bring the Australia Touring Car Championship back to relevance and back to the touring car ethos of the championship!

With the Americana muscle car format it has lost so much ground.

It's been on a downward trajectory ever since project blueprint in the early 2000s, and each successive generation making the cars further removed from any road going cars

Little interest in recent years and heading rapidly towards zero. I mean you can’t even buy the Camaro in Australia anymore!

Lost interest years ago when the cars no longer resembled production cars you could actually go and purchase.

It's deteriorated to the point they're just NASCAR's that happen to also turn right.

I started to lose interest when they went away from 'what wins on the weekend, sells on Monday' format of cars. The whole built chassis with a body shape dropped on is boring.

I used to watch religiously. Now I can take it or leave it.

I'll watch the Bathurst 1000 - but the rest? Only if there's nothing better on.

I used to be a big fan but have not watched a race for at least 5 years. The peak of touring cars in Australia for me was the late 80's and early 90's. It was more exciting to see cars with different strengths racing against each other.

I'd rather watch George Fury in his turbocharged Bluebird than the spec series garbage I see these days.

I loved watching the e30 M3's on smaller tracks like Amaroo Park. Even during the R32 skyline era they were able to keep up on tight tracks and it was fascinating to watch light and nibble vs outright HP. All that was gone when they changed to the current formula. I kept watching but when the Falcon and Commodore stopped production it really killed the last remaining bit of interest I had.

They have had a good run but I think the series will continue to slowly die off.

It’s been pointless since Holden/Ford closed production.

Fast forward to when Australia lost its car manufacturing ability and my love was non existent.

Link

I think the view of viewing the Bathurst 1000, and maybe only the last hour at that, and not bothering with the rest of the now minor interest championship is pretty common.

If the organisers want to start their own Americana muscle car series, a la Trans Am, that's great but why distort the Australian Touring Car Championship into that?!

Would it not make more sense for the ATCC itself however to adopt a varied touring car format to *get all those lost fans back*!?

The Falcon and Commodore idea had some merit at the time, but with those vehicles out of production, surely it is the perfect opportunity to reevaluate?

[Ares]

Motorsport is dying world wide. I understand your point, but you can only reinvent the wheel so many times. Its never going to ever be like the old days. Different time, different people.

[bathurst77]

Originally Posted by Ares

Motorsport is dying world wide. I understand your point, but you can only reinvent the wheel so many times. Its never going to ever be like the old days. Different time, different people.

There is some truth there. A lot of people got into it as kids because they wanted to see a car "like dads" beat the other one. And a lot of adults (mostly men) liked to brag and argue in the pub, bbq, school yard, that thair car was better because it won races.

Now we all drive suv, twincabs or maybe ev we dont care which is fastest.Winning Bathurst is no longer how we rate cars. And the cars on the track dont reflect what people have in their driveways

[Ares]

Originally Posted by bathurst77

There is some truth there. A lot of people got into it as kids because they wanted to see a car "like dads" beat the other one. And a lot of adults (mostly men) liked to brag and argue in the pub, bbq, school yard, that thair car was better because it won races.

Now we all drive suv, twincabs or maybe ev we dont care which is fastest.Winning Bathurst is no longer how we rate cars. And the cars on the track dont reflect what people have in their driveways

Yes 77, we are living in a very different world today from that of the golden era of motor racing. There is nothing anyone can do to change that, or bring it back. Dose anyone think the golden years of American Baseball could return today like it was in the 20s and 30s America? That time has gone.

Maybe you could elaborate on your comments at the bottom of your post 77? When you have a spare moment, Just interested.

[Ares]

Originally Posted by bluesport

Well said by Waters.

Both Tickford and Waters have been very inconsistent over the years, including WAU for that matter. We just need to be mindful that we are only hearing complaints from one side of the paddock at present. That doesn't mean its all roses on the other side. We have not been told what SVG doesn't like about the car, but he says he can't drive it. We don't know what the Chev drivers are having to drive around? It is a data game now.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Ares

Both Tickford and Waters have been very inconsistent over the years, including WAU for that matter. We just need to be mindful that we are only hearing complaints from one side of the paddock at present. That doesn't mean its all roses on the other side. We have not been told what SVG doesn't like about the car, but he says he can't drive it. We don't know what the Chev drivers are having to drive around? It is a data game now.

I would say that SVG doesn't like having less downforce.

[Ares]

Originally Posted by bluesport

I would say that SVG doesn't like having less downforce.

No I don't think it's that, Shane had said a number of times the aero needed to come off the cars. And if anyone could drive around that, Shane would be at the top of that list. I know there are a few thing that are not as nice in this new are as they were in the Gen2. I don't think Shane is alone there. Maybe he hasn't got enough to play with on a lap? No bars to adjust.

[S griffin]

I think it's fascinating. Shane has driven a variety of different cars in quite a few series, so he would know a bit about it. Obviously he's been at the top of his game in Supercars. But we need more time with this formula, although obviously Shane makes some good points. But is he starting to lose a bit or just his style isn't suiting the current cars?

[Matt K]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I think it's fascinating. Shane has driven a variety of different cars in quite a few series, so he would know a bit about it. Obviously he's been at the top of his game in Supercars. But we need more time with this formula, although obviously Shane makes some good points. But is he starting to lose a bit or just his style isn't suiting the current cars?

Can't see Shane 'losing', quite the contrary. Yes, he's not leading the championship at the moment (because of the DSQ in Newcastle) but if it hadn't been for that, he'd already have four victories and probably a lot more to come. Yes, Kostecki and Erebus are great at the moment but their form might fluctuate whereas SVG might only get stronger. In my opinion Shane is a benchmark and the combination of Camaro, Triple 8 and SVG is almost unbeatable at the moment (championship-wise, not looking at particular races). Triple 8 seems to be struggling a bit in qualifying - if it hadn't been for that, SVG would've probably won most of the races held so far. And judging by his latest comments, he likes the cars, but is put off by Supercars' politics.

[Mixer]

Cam Waters and Tickford cannot make this claim.

They literally throw away good results with stupid driving, intra-team crashes and mystifying pit stop calls.

The facts however are:

Ford initially blamed their issues on Aero - aero was addressed
Ford complained about shift cut - shift cut was addressed

Now they have a drivability issue - which has to be squarely blamed on their engine builder.

Ford is increasingly looking like the Brand who cried Wolf.

The points table doesn't tell a story about parity because the lack of results is easily explained by a lack of driver performance and consistency, and team incompetence.

Exactly as it was last year.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Mixer

Ford is increasingly looking like the Brand who cried Wolf.

All very well, but that's not going to stop Ford enthusiasts switching off with the feeling "why is the Chevrolet Camaro even out there at all to provide an obstacle, there is no reason for it to be out there?"

There's other motorsport to watch and the ATCC will lose out. A Mustang Cup would work to avoid parity issues, or a move to BOP with Mustang v Z v M440i would work to attract a broad base of especially younger fans like GT car racing like does.

The ATCC has to tread very carefully indeed to not lose the support of Ford Performance, noting that Ford Performance is the only manufacturer supporting the series and the ATCC could very easily end up with zero manufacturers.

People tuning in, being baffled as to "why is the Chevrolet Camaro so prominent in the Australian Touring Car Championship?", finding the racing tedious too, and then tuning out is not going to be exclusive to Ford enthusiasts either for that matter.

[Ares]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

All very well, but that's not going to stop Ford enthusiasts switching off with the feeling "why is the Chevrolet Camaro even out there at all to provide an obstacle, there is no reason for it to be out there?"

There's other motorsport to watch and the ATCC will lose out. A Mustang Cup would work to avoid parity issues, or a move to BOP with Mustang v Z v M440i would work to attract a broad base of especially younger fans like GT car racing like does.

The ATCC has to tread very carefully indeed to not lose the support of Ford Performance, noting that Ford Performance is the only manufacturer supporting the series and the ATCC could very easily end up with zero manufacturers.

People tuning in, being baffled as to "why is the Chevrolet Camaro so prominent in the Australian Touring Car Championship?", finding the racing tedious too, and then tuning out is not going to be exclusive to Ford enthusiasts either for that matter.

And what about ex Holden- GM fans in all of this? It doesn't matter if they all walkaway from the sport. Stop watching on TV and turning up to the tracks. Mustang cup would kill the sport, just because you'd watch it, doesn't mean everyone's going to.

[banksie]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

"why is the Chevrolet Camaro even out there at all to provide an obstacle, there is no reason for it to be out there?"

Because GM were willing to stump up the cash and invest in developing the car, committing to the category. This idea that a car from another manufacturer should be racing is living in dreamland. No other manufacturer wanted to invest, GM did.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

All very well, but that's not going to stop Ford enthusiasts switching off with the feeling "why is the Chevrolet Camaro even out there at all to provide an obstacle, there is no reason for it to be out there?"

There's other motorsport to watch and the ATCC will lose out. A Mustang Cup would work to avoid parity issues, or a move to BOP with Mustang v Z v M440i would work to attract a broad base of especially younger fans like GT car racing like does.

The ATCC has to tread very carefully indeed to not lose the support of Ford Performance, noting that Ford Performance is the only manufacturer supporting the series and the ATCC could very easily end up with zero manufacturers.

People tuning in, being baffled as to "why is the Chevrolet Camaro so prominent in the Australian Touring Car Championship?", finding the racing tedious too, and then tuning out is not going to be exclusive to Ford enthusiasts either for that matter.

Ford would have been better off just going with GT3 and also develop a mustang to take on the bimmers in the production class.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by banksie

Because GM were willing to stump up the cash and invest in developing the car, committing to the category. This idea that a car from another manufacturer should be racing is living in dreamland. No other manufacturer wanted to invest, GM did.

Are you sure they invested or did the ATCC/888 invest on their behalf (with the latter expecting returns from selling composite body panels)?