Time for a World championship?

[Speed-King]

I originally wanted to post this in the Panoz-thread, but it would probably been way too OT, so I am taking it here.

Originally Posted by Dunlop Corner

Panoz was certainly one of the, if not THE best private constructors. His return would definately be welcome, and who knows if Audi and Pug pulls the plug, Panoz should be in with a very good chance at the big one.

I don't see Audi and Pug pulling the plug completely as they just have developed a new car or are in the process of it. What I see however is a tendency towards the manufacturers cherry-picking the events they run, like they did in the 90s before the establishment of the (American) Le Mans Series, that gave them a place to run year round. Even more so if there should be any truth to the Highcroft/DeFerran-to-IRL/Acura-LMP1-on-the-back-burner-rumours.
Maybe it's time to let the manufacturers put together a world series of the best events and turn the regional series back into privateer territory, including remodeling the ALMS after the LMS with fewer but longer races at classic tracks.

The advantage would certainly be that they could cover the two (three if they add the Asian events) most important markets with just one racing programm.
The situation we have right now is rather unsatisfying, as we have a number of clashes of the titans but no proper season-long championship, somewhat like a stick and ball season only consisting of (very prestigious, I must admit) friendlies.

[Le Vieux]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

I originally wanted to post this in the Panoz-thread, but it would probably been way too OT, so I am taking it here.



I don't see Audi and Pug pulling the plug completely as they just have developed a new car or are in the process of it. What I see however is a tendency towards the manufacturers cherry-picking the events they run, like they did in the 90s before the establishment of the (American) Le Mans Series, that gave them a place to run year round. Even more so if there should be any truth to the Highcroft/DeFerran-to-IRL/Acura-LMP1-on-the-back-burner-rumours.
Maybe it's time to let the manufacturers put together a world series of the best events and turn the regional series back into privateer territory, including remodeling the ALMS after the LMS with fewer but longer races at classic tracks.

The advantage would certainly be that they could cover the two (three if they add the Asian events) most important markets with just one racing programm.
The situation we have right now is rather unsatisfying, as we have a number of clashes of the titans but no proper season-long championship, somewhat like a stick and ball season only consisting of (very prestigious, I must admit) friendlies.

Audi won't be around for ever and I suspect Peugeot will disappear once they have won LM. That leaves, er, Aston Martin as the only volume manufacturer present and it's not exactly the best economic climate in which to attract manufacturers.....

[dxk1]

I think manufacturers will always be looking for a place to showcase their latest innovations and the quality and reliability of their cars. Things ebb and flow, but in the long run there always needs to be a place for racing. I'm not sure a world championship is the place to do it, but it might be as marketing becomes more and more global. Right now, ALMS, LMS and Le Mans seems to meet the needs of most. Who knows where things will go once this global economic downturn begins to break and an upturn replaces it.

DK

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

I originally wanted to post this in the Panoz-thread, but it would probably been way too OT, so I am taking it here.



I don't see Audi and Pug pulling the plug completely as they just have developed a new car or are in the process of it. What I see however is a tendency towards the manufacturers cherry-picking the events they run, like they did in the 90s before the establishment of the (American) Le Mans Series, that gave them a place to run year round. Even more so if there should be any truth to the Highcroft/DeFerran-to-IRL/Acura-LMP1-on-the-back-burner-rumours.
Maybe it's time to let the manufacturers put together a world series of the best events and turn the regional series back into privateer territory, including remodeling the ALMS after the LMS with fewer but longer races at classic tracks.

The advantage would certainly be that they could cover the two (three if they add the Asian events) most important markets with just one racing programm.
The situation we have right now is rather unsatisfying, as we have a number of clashes of the titans but no proper season-long championship, somewhat like a stick and ball season only consisting of (very prestigious, I must admit) friendlies.

A World Championship IMO is a no, no, the only questions are whether ALMS wishes to run 10+ rounds, or a small schedule.

I guess it all depends on whether you believe the ALMS's problems are entirely economy related, or not.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by JAG

I guess it all depends on whether you believe the ALMS's problems are entirely economy related, or not.

Without the financial crisis Audi would probably run in ALMS and we would have a fantastic championship (Acura vs Audi in LMP1 and the strong GT2 field).

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Without the financial crisis Audi would probably run in ALMS and we would have a fantastic championship (Acura vs Audi in LMP1 and the strong GT2 field).

Yeah, but who knows how long the bad times will last? I recently read an article about a probable bottleneck in oil-production in 2013 that might stall any recovery we might have by then due to highly increased oil prices. If that really happens, we might be in for a rough ride well until 2015.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Without the financial crisis Audi would probably run in ALMS and we would have a fantastic championship (Acura vs Audi in LMP1 and the strong GT2 field).

I don't see how that would be "fantastic". Four cars in LMP1 is still a joke, look at the numbers the LMS is attracting. You need privateers to fill the field and provide some variety, you can't just rely on factory efforts.

The ALMS has never understood that, that's why there are almost zero LMP privateers left. They are always keen about getting factories involved and forget the rest.

LMP2 is pretty much a joke too, Fernandez has the championship 50% secured after one race! Don't get me started on GT1, GT2 is the only healthy class. But even that does not always result in great racing, the GT2 win in Sebring was pretty much decided after the first caution.

The ALMS lacks much more than one or two factory efforts to become a "fantastic" series. But I guess they´ll never learn...

[fiend540]

Everyone likes to compare the alms to the lms when it comes to entrants but they leave out what i think is the biggest problem that the alms faces that the lms will never have to face and that is the competition from other styles of racing aka Circle track racing. I live in NY and know of 3 road courses in the whole state of which only two could contain a race of full size cars and only one could field an event like a sportscar race. There are FIVE ovals withing an hour of my house, bump that up to 2 or 3 hours and that number more than doubles. I think it is fair to say that this is a trend that is true for most states.

Now I don't want this to turn into a Circle vs Road course debate, both styles have their pluses and minuses and I would hope most racing fans could find enjoyment in both but you can't deny that the overall availability of circle track racing both to fans and participants is why it dominants main stream racing in the US. Sponsors go where the exposure is, and as unfortunate as it may be IMO this is why there is a struggle for privateer teams to find the funding to run, let alone be competitive. Look at intersport, if it wasn't for the money gentlemen drivers brought in they would never be able to afford to race, yet those gentlemen drivers can also be tied to why they have troubles competing.

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by Acid09

I don't see how that would be "fantastic". Four cars in LMP1 is still a joke, look at the numbers the LMS is attracting. You need privateers to fill the field and provide some variety, you can't just rely on factory efforts.

The ALMS has never understood that, that's why there are almost zero LMP privateers left. They are always keen about getting factories involved and forget the rest.

LMP2 is pretty much a joke too, Fernandez has the championship 50% secured after one race! Don't get me started on GT1, GT2 is the only healthy class. But even that does not always result in great racing, the GT2 win in Sebring was pretty much decided after the first caution.

The ALMS lacks much more than one or two factory efforts to become a "fantastic" series. But I guess they´ll never learn...

I couldn't disagree with you more. The American Le Mans Series is the best positioned championship in the world right now. Leave the field open for the best of the factory efforts. The brilliant part about the current era of sports car racing is that there are plenty of options for privateers to go racing at a reasonable cost. I forget where I heard this, but Intersport Racing's budget was HALF that of the Lizards'! Other than the fact that the American Le Mans Series is fan friendly, has a television presence, and attracts fairly good at-track attendance numbers, the only difference between the two series is the length of schedule and races. The American Le Mans Series has kept their LMP2 rules, thus eliminating the costs that the ACO have indirectly put on their teams to "upgrade" to the 2009 specs. Yes a series that is a manufacturer's playground will suffer in tough economic climates, but the series has still lost private teams (BK Motorsports, ECO Racing, Corsa Motorsports[back at Utah?], Bell Motorsports, Black Swan and the list goes on). Look, Mosport 2008 is a great example of what the ALMS can do. Intersport were right in the thick of things, very competitive with Audi, and of course I need not mention all the quick LMP2 cars. The fault of GT1 isn't on the shoulders of the ALMS... seriously... it died in America first because of the presence of Pratt & Miller's Chevy Corvette factory program? What BAN them from competition? Penalize them for being a factory effort? ... Now I'm ranting. Look, the one thing that could have helped the ALMS in times like this would be a title sponsor, or another means of increasing the purse for the races to make sure there is some monetary "instant gratification" for teams to enter. But, that clearly wasn't in the cards. So we'll watch the GT2 battle and salivate at FACTORY supported teams going after one another in that huge class ALONGSIDE TRUE PRIVATEERS developing their own cars, and hopefully Corsa will be back to battle Acura alongside Autocon and Intersport (the latter I reckon can be a serious bee on the bonnet of Acura), and Dyson can shoot out with Lowes-Fernandez and any other takers. With the Dow improving and a potential recovery underway I think it is very reasonable to think a lot more entries will return to the ALMS, and a lot more factories will return as well. I'm not entirely sure we need a world championship, politics would get in the way from the off.

Chris

P.S. 1st in GT2 was not contested after the first caution. But that didn't mean there wasn't great racing throughout the class... cars unlapping themselves, fighting for one of the other positions in the 15 car field. The fact that 1st place was decided was more due to Sebring attrition than anything. With new cars and new rules Sebring's nature put a beating on all entrants.

[chewymonster]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

I forget where I heard this, but Intersport Racing's budget was HALF that of the Lizards'!

Hence their level of performance. You are going need a good amount of money to be competitive in prototypes whether in ALMS or LMS.

For the future I would prefer the ACO to forget 2011 rules, but that maybe too late now as Peugeot (and others?) has already started a 2011 program.

[LeMans.pt]

It's always time for it... at least in an fan perspective. The makes may have another vision.

IMO, LMS and ALMS could be regional championships for LMP2 and GT classes (mostly privateers with no money to go world wide racing), and, some of the LMS, ALMS and Asian LMS rounds with Le Mans at top (5 rounds total) a World Series for LMP1 only.

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

I couldn't disagree with you more. The American Le Mans Series is the best positioned championship in the world right now.

That's not really saying much to be honest.

In my opinion, ALMS was at its best from 1999-2002. At the start we had BMW, Panoz, and a ton of private entries that could at least put up a challenge on their day. 2000 and 2001 brought along Audi to that list. Then in GT1 we had Viper Team Oreca and the upstart Corvette challenger. GT2 was always a good fight among the various Porsche teams. It drew power teams from all parts of the world, there was even an Australian GT2 team for a year or so. And after that point, from 2003-2007, everything pretty much declined to not being a competition at all with the exception of GT2 with the added presence of Ferrari. 2008 was fun and brought back memories of the Audi-BMW-Panoz battles when we had the Porsche-Acura-Audi fights. But alas, it lasted a grand total of one year and it's gone.

If we did have a world championship though, only as long as politics were not allowed or had no power, which would never happen, and all cars could compete in all races, which would also never happen, how's this for a race lineup:

Mil Milhas
Daytona
Sebring
Le Mans
Spa 24
a Japanese race (Fuji?)
Petit

[old man]

I have said it before on other threads and so I apologise for repeating it but the World Chamionship Final is the LM 24 is it not?

The other races/championships are qualifying events

[joeb]

Originally Posted by old man

I have said it before on other threads and so I apologise for repeating it but the World Chamionship Final is the LM 24 is it not?

The other races/championships are qualifying events

I like it.

[dxk1]

Originally Posted by old man

I have said it before on other threads and so I apologise for repeating it but the World Chamionship Final is the LM 24 is it not?

The other races/championships are qualifying events

Totally agree.

DK

[tkelland]

A couple of problems here.

1) The American Le Mans Series and the (European) Le Mans Series are two completely different animals. They have a number of similarities, 4 class racing, some of the same cars and have pit stops/driver changes. Beyond this, they are for two different audiences. With most of the manufacturer's coming from Europe and a narrower focus on where the events are held (distance between tracks/home shops for teams) allows for longer races with fewer overall events.

In America, we have a larger area to cover (as far as proximity of event locations) and an audience that is not used to endurance races. To spread your series, you have to hit a new audience and that audience over here is used to races lasting 2-3 hours, not 6+.

2) As stated earlier, a world championship would be too expensive. Though I really would love to see some of the American Le Mans teams race at Monza or Spa, or to see the European teams racing at my home track of Mid-Ohio or Laguna. It's just too expensive.

[The Badger]

I think a world championship is a great idea but , I dont think it would work given the crisis at the moment .

[Asa]

I think a world championship which takes in the best events without doing away with the ALMS, LMS and Asian LMS will be interesting.

It does not mean the ALMS, LMS and Asian LMS will go away. It is just that Audi, Peugeot and whoever else can compete for the title of world champion at some of the biggest endurance events worldwide.

E.g.
round 1 Sebring 12 hrs
round 2 Monza 1000 km
round 3 Le Mans 24 hrs
round 4 Silverstone 1000 km
round 5 Petit Le Mans
round 6 Mil Milhas Brazil
round 7 Shanghai 1000km
round 8 Adelaide 1000km

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by old man

I have said it before on other threads and so I apologise for repeating it but the World Chamionship Final is the LM 24 is it not?

The other races/championships are qualifying events

Therer IS NO "final" in a "World Championship", any supposed "final" is the team that scores enough points to take this supposed "championship."

What ever tracks that would be in, would merely be chips in a pile.

[zac510]

If WTCC and umpteen open-wheeler series can survive financially I don't see why an Endurance World Championship shouldn't be able to. At its core it's just cars, drivers and racing circuits.
But it would need some a commercial/marketing genius to come in and control it, guarantee TV/media coverage and make big international companies be able to justify sponsorship payment. Most of the promotion of the current series' seem to be done by the teams (see Embassy sposnoring RLM, Peugeot Silverstone 08 etc).

[porsche91722]

Originally Posted by zac510

If WTCC and umpteen open-wheeler series can survive financially I don't see why an Endurance World Championship shouldn't be able to. At its core it's just cars, drivers and racing circuits.
But it would need some a commercial/marketing genius to come in and control it, guarantee TV/media coverage and make big international companies be able to justify sponsorship payment. Most of the promotion of the current series' seem to be done by the teams (see Embassy sposnoring RLM, Peugeot Silverstone 08 etc).

The key to any possibility of this actually happening would be the agreement of all the present organisations getting together to come up with a plan that would not bring their own set ups crashing down. As much as I would like to see a World Sportscar Championship take place, I think the usual BS and political bloodletting would stop it. You are right about needing a "marketing genius". He would have to be an expert in diplomacy.

[chewymonster]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Therer IS NO "final" in a "World Championship", any supposed "final" is the team that scores enough points to take this supposed "championship."

What ever tracks that would be in, would merely be chips in a pile.

But the current system works pretty well. A team can win the ALMS championship, another team can win the LMS championship. But, the best of the best teams will win 24 Hours of Le Mans.

I don't think there would be too many teams that would participate ($$$) in such a "world series" to make this worth the effort.

[cdsvg]

Originally Posted by Asa

Adelaide 1000km

Yes please! Been praying for a return of prototype racing down-under for years, don't think it will happen any time soon though

[old man]

Originally Posted by chewymonster

But the current system works pretty well. A team can win the ALMS championship, another team can win the LMS championship. But, the best of the best teams will win 24 Hours of Le Mans.

I don't think there would be too many teams that would participate ($$$) in such a "world series" to make this worth the effort.

Exactly my point

[Subaru_WRX_STi]

Originally Posted by zac510

If WTCC and umpteen open-wheeler series can survive financially I don't see why an Endurance World Championship shouldn't be able to. At its core it's just cars, drivers and racing circuits.

WTCC has full factory teams, runing real touring cars, and they arent as expensive as LMPs and GTs !

I am against a World Sports Car Championship, ALMS + LMS + AsianLMS, thats enough for now and seeing most of ALMS don't care even about Le Mans and refuse to get there, I don't see them very happy about a World Le Mans Series, plus look at SRO crazy idea about a World GT1 Championship, its gonne kill the FIA GT.