MSV F3 Cup

[Lola]

Lets hope that because he is in the invitation class that he cant take points away from the regulars. It would be sad if that were to affect the final outcome.

[Stephen Green]

I seem to remember Carlin and Double R running a couple of cars last year to qualify for Pau and it didn't affect the points for the regular drivers.

[andrewc]

Last year, the two guest drivers were in F308's or newer cars which are not eligible to score points as the championship is open to F307 and earlier cars. They are put into an invitational class.

I suppose if someone rocked up with an eligible car they would be permitted to score points (in the same way that Lynn, Stanley and Khani did)

[andrewc]

Esteban Ocon, a Lotus F1 protege, will be racing with Lanan at Snett to fulfill Macau requirements. He will be in the Gino Ussi F305-Mercedes, so in theory will be able to score points which may assist Alex Craven's bid to become champion.

Gino Ussi is also coming out of retirement to drive their blue F302 that Lynn/Walkinshaw/Khani/Impey/Headlam have all used.

[REALIST]

Originally Posted by Flavio Galtieri

I think you lot are being quite rotten to Alice.

The fact is we need a female F1 driver, we need more female racing drivers in general just as we need more females as role models in other top jobs in our society. And yes, a lot of performance at at this and higher levels IS down to the car. Alice was usually just outside the top ten during her one year in GP3.

I've seen male drivers in GP3 and Euro F3 who I seriously doubt could put a car on the front row of a Formula Vee club race let alone FF1600.

I don't see any threads criticising them!

The fact remains that she is being beaten by clubbies on a regular basis, despite running a significantly higher budget and she has shown nothing that would indicate any professional level ability.

Do we really need this type of driver in F1?

Not sure about your reference to performance being down to the car? Are you suggesting that she and her fully financed team really can't set up the car as well as the guys running out of garages at home?

As for people being rotten to her, maybe she should have thought of that when she, alone on the grid, refused to sign to permit one of her rivals to run in his spare car from the rear of the grid last month?

[andrewc]

Antonio Felix da Costa is also coming out to play, presumably wants to go bak to Macau and get back to back wins.

[RF_Racer]

You have to look back at Tristan in 2012 he was consistent in the red 307 with a Toyota Spanish spec engine but could not get any where near the front when you had the likes of Bridger, Khani, Lynn, the last two on track who were in a spec engine Dallara. This year he has the best car on the grid or the best engineered car and he is banging out poles and wins. Credit to the team and also his driving has probably improved also.

Alice to be fair to her seems to be driving a car that is probably not well engineered, breaking down and lacking that extra on the engine front compared to the spec engines out here but is still in the hunt and mixing it with the top drivers. She is not a bad driver, she won against pretty decent drivers in BARC FR back in 2010.

[andrewc]

Last year Tristan found himself going down a bit of a setup blind alley which meant that he ended up overdriving the car slightly. The setup he's now calculated is somewhat different and he's not needing to overdrive it, and thinks applying this setup to the last years car would see improved results.

The Mugen is about 20kgs lighter than the Toyota which means he's closer to the minimum weight limit, and Alice is probably 20kg lighter than most drivers anyway, so is also near the weight limit.

Cars with the proper F3 engines have a torque advantage, but at the end of the straights the Spanish spec F3 engines often have the higher top speed, and the cars need to be geared slightly differently to take that into account, but when Tristan compared data logging from Brands GP 2012 to 2013 he was surprised to see that the acceleration and speed graphs were showing the same rate of change which means that engine performance was actually more similar than he thought.

[Neil1982]

Originally Posted by RF_Racer

You have to look back at Tristan in 2012 he was consistent in the red 307 with a Toyota Spanish spec engine but could not get any where near the front when you had the likes of Bridger, Khani, Lynn, the last two on track who were in a spec engine Dallara. This year he has the best car on the grid or the best engineered car and he is banging out poles and wins. Credit to the team and also his driving has probably improved also.

Alice to be fair to her seems to be driving a car that is probably not well engineered, breaking down and lacking that extra on the engine front compared to the spec engines out here but is still in the hunt and mixing it with the top drivers. She is not a bad driver, she won against pretty decent drivers in BARC FR back in 2010.

Jay Bridger was driving a Spanish Spec car a didn't seem to have much trouble disappearing into the distance. Alice's finishing record would suggest, from a reliability point of view at least, that her car is as well engineered as the others on the grid, if not better. MBR know how to prepare and setup an F3 car.

It is clear that Alice is an extremely competent driver, but F1 material I doubt it. In F3 Cup, she needed to take every pole, win every race and set every fastest lap to even hint at that level of quality, regardless of what engine is in the back of her car. It is a series contested by competent amateurs, many of which do little or no testing and have to go to work on a Monday to pay for their racing on the weekends. Even if she wins the title, I don't think she will have done it in a convincing enough fashion to suggest that one day she could be a true contestant for an F1 seat on ability alone.

[EastonNeston]

In qualifying at Snetterton today,
http://www.tsl-timing.com/msvr/2013/134351f3c.pdf

Carlos Sainz & Felix De costa were about 2.25 seconds ahead of the best of the regular runners.

Alice Powell was in 8th place, a mere 3.682" off the pole time and 1.432" slower than the fastest regular F3 cup runner.

It seems pretty obvious who has the F1 potential.

For the record MBR prepare very good and safe cars, having won their class in British F3 and been successful for many years, so I'd suggest if your looking for reasons why the car isn't at the front you look at the component sat in the car!

[andy97]

She was testing at Snetterton a week ago Friday, too. Only F3 car there. Should have had set up nailed?

[andrewc]

Alice and Alex were testing this friday and the week before. She was in both her regular Toyota (European Open nee Spanish F3) and Stuart Wiltshire's Mugen engined car. She chose to use the Mugen engined car although the entry list and therefore timing details show her in the other car.

Despite Tristan claiming pole, class win and FL (still no testing), he is now out of the championship as he needed both other contenders to have bad weekends.

[TimRTC]

Tristan looked very dominant today but I was amazed by young Esteban Ocon on his first F3 outing. Driving an F305 he was far ahead of the other F3 Cup cars.

Sainz and da Costa were far ahead as you would expect although a pity they didn't really seem to be pushing too hard against each other.

[andrewc]

Season Over.

Last race had its moments of drama. Ocon withdrew before the race - his car had a misfire yesterday, traced to a failed crank position sensor.

First three had problems getting off the line and Da Costa was clipped by another car which tapped him round into the path of another competitor - red flagged. 3 cars out. On the restart, Tristan got the jump on Carlos Sainz and led for 2/3 of the lap until he Sainz passed under braking for the Esses. Tristan then hit a patch of standing water which spun him out of the race at Corum. Several others had moments in the same place too.

Sainz won, but Henry Chart won the real race behind, with Alex Craven behind him and Alice Powell just behind.

This result means that Alex Craven is the 2013 Champion - well done Alex.

[qwertyuiop]

As a casual observer I'd like to get some genuine thoughts. Was the MASSiVE difference in pace of Sainz and De Costa down to the drivers or their cars?
I know the two drivers are pros against very good amateurs but the gap seemed SO big! Thoughts?

[kipper]

I wouldn't say that I was coming at this from an informed perspective, but the Snetterton 300 circuit is very long. The result of this is that any differences between drivers/cars will be magnified on the timing sheet.

[andrewc]

Budget - the budget per car for one weekend for these guys would keep some F3 Cup drivers going for almost 2 seasons, so you'd expect the car to be in tip-top order, and that budget buys plenty of testing time, sim time and so on.

Also I believe the invitational class was not subject to F3 Cup weight limits, and were running 15kg lighter than the regular drivers.

Oh yes, skill. Both Sainz and Da Costa are Red Bull backed and both did well in the F1 young driver test.

The gap between the ams and the pros was less than last year.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by qwertyuiop

As a casual observer I'd like to get some genuine thoughts. Was the MASSiVE difference in pace of Sainz and De Costa down to the drivers or their cars?
I know the two drivers are pros against very good amateurs but the gap seemed SO big! Thoughts?

In my view, as good as the front runners are in Club F3, and they are VERY good, the gap to the professionals is still massive. It's like the difference between a very good, say single figure golfer, and the Tour Pros - probably 8 -12 shots a round. A massive difference. Similarly the difference between a good club cricketer or footballer and Professionals. Massive, again.

I remember many years ago, when Toyota came in to F1, they did a promo session with a motoring journalist at Silverstone GP circuit. De Matta set a time in a standard Celica and then the journalist had ago - a decent and experienced driver (albeit not a racer as I recall) - and he was something like 22 secs slower round the lap. Massive.

The point is that the difference between the pros and good club competitors at any sport is huge. (as is the gap between the good club racers and the likes of me, and I have been blown away by some of them in Monoposto, lol)

[EastonNeston]

To add to the discussion, in gp3 free practise yesterday, Alice Powell was over 3 seconds of the pace of the fastest car, which suggests her ability, even taking all the mitigating factors into account, is around the level of a decent non professional driver.

[REALIST]

Originally Posted by EastonNeston

To add to the discussion, in gp3 free practise yesterday, Alice Powell was over 3 seconds of the pace of the fastest car, which suggests her ability, even taking all the mitigating factors into account, is around the level of a decent non professional driver.

She's around the level of a decent clubbie, nothing more, but an F1 prospect? Not at all.

It was rather disappointing to hear the GP3 commentator this morning mention her being in the F3 Cup and "absolutely bossing it".

I would think the several others who have beaten her, at one time or another, this year wouldn't agree with that analysis.

[qwertyuiop]

Thanks for the replies, how much does a days testing in these cars cost?

[andrewc]

I would expect somewhere in the region of £ 2000 + VAT for a test day in a rented car on old but usable tyres - but you would need to visit beforehand for a seat fitting and pedal adjustment.

[ptclaus98]

I wish the US had a series like this! Atlantics run about a million dollars to run competitively for a season. How much and how frequent are engine rebuilds?

[andrewc]

Depends on the engine, how much testing you do. If you have a Merc or VW you'd probably be thinking of an engine refresh from 2800km. If you have a Toyota long life engine you may consider 2 or 3 times that.

There have been attempts by an outfit based in Montreal to set up a North American / Canadian F3 Championship. There are a number of cars there now.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by andrewc

Depends on the engine, how much testing you do. If you have a Merc or VW you'd probably be thinking of an engine refresh from 2800km. If you have a Toyota long life engine you may consider 2 or 3 times that.

There have been attempts by an outfit based in Montreal to set up a North American / Canadian F3 Championship. There are a number of cars there now.

The Canadian F3 stuff is not gonna happen. That guy burnt a pretty big bridge by bsing at apexspeed. He didn't do anything to alleviate fears of him being a scammer, and if it looks like a scsmmer, it might as well be one. Its a shame because I was rooting for it until he showed his ass. I'd kill to work on an f3 engine. Of course the k20 is coming to FA so maybe someone in my area will use it in their FA and I can convince them to let me wrench on their car.