Formula Atlantic etc (was 'Chevron B29s') - Page 3

Bryan Miller · 5 May 2003, 10:49 (Ref:589920)

Gents , some follow ups and queries.

Chevron , Millen , B42-78-01 , I have 1st. race at Donnington Park 29/10/77 Trivellato Racing , Ricardo Patrese.

March 75B in Davids list of cars in N.Z. as 742-1 , to Howard Wood,Reg Cook , John Grobbe 1982.
I had to do an eligibility inspection on an ex N.Z. March 742 in July 1977 which we declined to pass as the owner gave us basically no supporting evidence , and the car was soon after sold I believe to U.K. Europe .
N.Z. owners were called out as Ken Smith in 1993 , to John Mackinlay 1994-5 then to B.M.W. dealer principle Mr.R Shield in Sydney, however car carried plate 742-U2.
Have we got another entity on our hands or is this 742-1 ??

Chris Townsend · 5 May 2003, 10:51 (Ref:589922)

Bryan

Can I ask a question about another of Miedecke's cars?
The Lola T360 that was for sale a while back on race-cars.com
This was described as ex-Miedecke and was supposedly the Lola development car, not being given a plate until it was exported.

If this was the works car it actually had rather more racing history up here than race-cars ad suggested, having been used by Richard Scott and Ken Bailey in '74 and then Tony Trimmer and Mike King in '76. Can Andy give any more clues?

Now I'll get off line so you can fax me!

Bryan Miller · 5 May 2003, 11:34 (Ref:589939)

Chris , car sold to another of my friends , after I assisted as he was all dejected after having his Lola T.560 junked by a F5000 at Sandown Park Historic meeting Nov. last year.
Car carries plate T360-AU-1, was here in time to compete at Oran Park F2 rd. late June 1974.
Yes I believe it could be the car used 2 x times by Richard Scott , I had also picked up on that thread and believe it possible , although various dubious letters were submitted for eligibility circa 1990 .
The next time I see Don Baker I will ask for the true story.
The T 560 is HU-1 , which according to Lola book is the only 1 , and after that it was only update kits supplied to bring your T 460 up to 560 specs. then you got to call it a T460/560.
Am I correct. ????
The 560 will be rebuilt , but at the moment it is pretty sore.
I have been revisiting my Autosports starting from Jan. 1974 , and am 1/2 way through 1975 now , making notes re. our interests, one of many bits is ..............
18/4/74 P.4 jOCK tobin advises that the March Atlantic driven by Gill Orchard is based on ex. Buettler 722 , extensively modified, hence ch.pl. being Santos/March , with March blessing. Many more to come.
Bryan.

Chris Townsend · 5 May 2003, 12:31 (Ref:589969)

Bryan

Lola T560's. Is the HU1 car ex Jerry Hansen?
I think there was one car built by the works, which ran in practice at Silverstone F2 in April '77 driven by Roberto Marazzi and didn't race or appear again. Had an Abarth engine.
This too may have been kitted on a spare 460 chassis left around the works of course.
Do you happen to know if the 560 kit came with a plate, or if this car was once upon a time T460-HU1?

Jock Tobin, boy would I like to track this guy down!! If it wasn't bad enough that March switched tubs from car to car and year to year, they then paid this guy to build cars out of old spares. There's at least one F5000 March built by him [a 73A originally I think] which probably only hillclimbs, but...
That Orchard / Beuttler 722 is twice described by AS race reporter as based on a 713M. One of those attributions is after Santos has advised that it's on a 722, so I think the guy was paying attention to what was on the plate not what Santos was saying. Mind you, it wouldn't have been beyond March's wit to build the 722 out of the 713M to begin with.

If the Miedecke T360 raced at Oran Park in June '74 it certainly isn't the Scott/Bailey car, which Bailey drove to the end of that season in the UK. Nor can it be the Trimmer/King car. But, if it was in Australia by mid 74 it solves a gap in my records on T360s, because it means that the Scott car is probably HU1, a proper production model.

allenbrown · 5 May 2003, 14:59 (Ref:590061)

Quote:

Originally posted by Bryan Miller
Allen , faxed you Modus list , will keep trying Chris,s no.

Yes - I got it. Chris - do you have it now or do you need a copy?

Quote:

Originally posted by Bryan Miller
Big question , Brabham B.T.43-11 , the F5000 car , my sources advised many years ago , this is the car bought in a customs ??? sale and then ran by Kevin Bartlett in Oz , that after Kev had finished with it , it had to go back to U.K. at end of lease ??? , that car arrived in U.K. and nobody was prepared to pay import duty , so car pushed off freighter into Thames to satisfy customs requirements.

Can you confirm ????????

That's news to me. I thought Bartlett had wrecked it at Sandown Park in September 1979. He crashed when a rear wheel parted company with the car, tearing through the catch-fencing and into the banking at the Dunlop Bridge. He had a broken arm and broken ankle and I thought that the BT43 was written off. Could it just have been the remains that came back to the UK?

Quote:

Originally posted by Bryan Miller
Smith sold to Ken Shirvington , who still retains car to this day , although nobody has seen it , or the Lotus 20 he has had since 1965 , or the Toleman T.G.280 or the Lola T 400 all of which , plus who nows what else that he has hidden to keep away from ex wife and lawyers.

So does he definitely still have the T400? Wasn't this car rebuilt on a T332 tub at some point.

Oops - sorry - I'm asking F5000 questions on a F/Atlantic thread.

Allen

allenbrown · 5 May 2003, 15:05 (Ref:590065)

Quote:

Originally posted by Chris Townsend
Jock Tobin, boy would I like to track this guy down!!

Chris

I did - some years back. Incredibly, he was then the mechanic servicing Robs Lamplough's two Spitfire's out in Essex somewhere. That big aircraft museum. Dunford? Dumstead? Something like that. But now he answers to Sandy Topin and his wife said that nobody ever called him "Jock". He couldn't remember much about where the cars went - he said he sold a F5000 March to Sonny Rajah for Tasman!

Allen

David McKinney · 5 May 2003, 16:04 (Ref:590123)

According to what AM told me at the time he had the Lola T360, it was the works prototype and after testing was dismantled for making jigs. Presumably the AU1 number went on when it went to Australia in 1974, when Dolphin Racing ran it with t/c for Graeme Lawrence, Kevin Bartlett and Chris Farrell. Then Doug McArthur 1975-76 before Miedecke, and John Davis after

Chris Townsend · 5 May 2003, 18:52 (Ref:590227)

Allen and Bryan

Yes I got the fax. Many thanks, it solves a great many problems - not least the identity of Dieter Carrol's 1978 car.

The airfield is Duxford. I took my step dad there a few months ago for a reunion [He was in a bomber crew].

I bet Topin was the man who made Rajah's 712M into a 73B - and it did go to the Far East and [as Bryan has revealed] also made its way into the Antipodes.

David, thanks for the info on the T360. This suggests even more that the Scott-Bailey car is something else. Bailey was still racing it in August 74.

Bryan Miller · 5 May 2003, 23:48 (Ref:590466)

Chris, T560-1 is Jerry Hansen car , we have copies of all S.C.C.A. papers , 1st.logged 15/8/77 , 1st. race Blackhawk in Illinois 19/8/77 , kept till June 1982 , to Bruce Clark , to Richard George 1989, to Dennis Tobin 1990, to Dr. Michael Henderson , Sydney Australia 21/10/1995 , to Mr. Colin Haste Sydney about 3 years ago .
Damaged at present , to be rebuilt.
I have Carl Haas 2 page sale brochure for T560 , any use ????

Re. T360 Au-1 ,this is also owned by Colin Haste , whilt T 560 repaired
T360 , David , you are correct in what A.M. told you as that is what everybody was told , we later rec,d letter stating car had run in U.K. with B.D.A. , then pulled down and sent to Australia and built up with Twin Cam for A.F.2.

Our rules changed in regard to cut off dates for post 1970 cars , originally ended at 31/12/1975. Therfore T 360 only elig. in Aust . with T.C. and car presented to us with B.D.A. and letter stating U.K. race hist. with B.D .
Our rules changed to end 1977 so problem went away, however I can,t concieve that car did not run in U.K, at least in some sort of test, which looks like it is the proto. was tested ,but not raced then pulled down and came here, interestingly period report says 3 more being built up in Aust. by Abbey/Baker ,but they did not happen , however still with car to this day are folded up tub panels as spares.

Bryan Miller · 6 May 2003, 00:06 (Ref:590477)

Allen , yes but I started the 5000 question , this sounds better , remains of B.T.43-11 out of Aust. to satisfy Aust. customs rules or you had to pay duty. Sent back as pile of damaged comp. to U.K. and into Thames as by now car not competitive. Do you have car anywhere after K.B,s accident,or did it dissapear.
Shirvington T400 will do some digging , but I have never heard of any of his cars surfacing to this point in time.

Any takers on March 742-U2 ex. N.z. yet ?????????????

Bryan Miller · 6 May 2003, 00:47 (Ref:590489)

Chris , one thing on Modus is very clear that is , whilst M1 and M3 were supposed to mean different models all the race reports I am revisiting re. 022 change from 1 meeting to the next but it is still the same car.
Modus are just as big a mess as all other Marques , as we seem to have more Atlantic entities out and about than the ch. lists suggest.
E.G , as I believe I am correct in my 022 , see A/S july 24 p.44/45 , Nick Jordan had built up a new M1 round a new tub following Brands . See also where G ygax is reported in ex. Brise hired ex. Monaco F.3 chassis, see report A/S may 15 p26 , Tony Brise in his converted Atlantic Modus ,
to my mind this leaves us with no no. to allocate to the car built up for the British G.P. and after.???????

Armco Bender · 6 May 2003, 04:48 (Ref:590541)

Whats this Chevron then?http://www.race-cars.com/carsales/ch...7/397707ss.htm Its advertised as S/N 39-77-07.Its obviously been to NZ,but is it a B39,it looks like a B34?.Also in the spare parts it lists an blue engine cover with a Ford emblem on it,that was the colour scheme on the '77 series Opert cars that came here.:confused:

David McKinney · 6 May 2003, 05:45 (Ref:590553)

The Excita connection suggests Rosberg's 1977 North American FAt car. As the Opert B39s that came to NZ at the end of that year were 06 and 08, one has to wonder when the "NZ tech" stickers were applied to 07....

Bryan Miller · 6 May 2003, 05:46 (Ref:590554)

Re. Chevron B42-78-01 , shouldhave advised in earlier note , car has just returned to Historic racing , owners Peter and Jamie Larner , has been here for many years.

RE. Modus A./S 10/1/74 has photo of car at Autosport show p.36 .

Chris Townsend · 6 May 2003, 07:23 (Ref:590604)

David

That B39-07 is kosher, I think. 06, 07 and 08 were all Opert cars, and the Excita bodywork suggests Opert use in the N.American series. Wasn't 07 the spare in the 78 series? Maybe it stayed in the truck, or it's got the bodywork off of 06 or 08. Whether the car was the one used by Hunt and Rahal as well as Rosberg, as the vendor now claims, is rather open to question. Without Opert race records, or a chassis number hound from the Mexico City race [a bit unlikely] we'll never really know.

Armco: B39 bodywork is remarkably similar to B34.

Bryan: Am thinking about your 742 and trying to track down Val Musetti. He still works in film business, and I can probably network him through my contacts.

Bryan Miller · 6 May 2003, 07:42 (Ref:590613)

Chris. In 1974 april , we have Howard Rose in another old March 712M , described as ex. Frank Williams / Carlos Pace , should make 712M-20 .????????????

Also have you seen ref. to Alan Rollinson out and about in what was called 732 but actually ex. Coombes/Depailler 722 , which should give it -45. Note states had just been collected from works and called dev. car with side rads. , new nose and only March in F.A. upto current F2 spec.

Chris Townsend · 6 May 2003, 17:27 (Ref:591256)

Bryan

Agree about the Howard Rose car as 712M-20
Agree about the Rollinson car based on 722-45
Also out there, though perhaps it's only tested and never raced is a 74B based on an ex Coulon 732 chassis. This is mentioned first as being sold to Mike Sullivan racing for Alan Jones, to go alongside their 712M/722, but then it mysteriously stays at March, because a few weeks later there's a piece about Johnny Nick testing it to see if it's more competitive than the Lyncar. [JN stuck with the Lyncar...]
If F1R is to be believed Coulon's cars in 73 were 732-7 and 732-12.
As F1R give 732-7 as Laurent Ferrier's car in F2 in 1976 the probability is that this was 732-12.

Another 712M in Atlantic in 74 is 712M-11. This appears for Richard Robinson and is described as ex Colin Andrews. Andrews's car in 73 Atlantic is described as a former Shell-Arnold car raced by Jaussaud, so probably 712M-11 as that seems to have been the chassis he raced most often. Robinson is entered by Mike Sullivan Racing, and I suspect that the 722 which they enter for Alan Jones and Richard Knight is probably this car.

Howard Rose: Goes on to race [or rather to not qualify for some races] in the 1977 ShellSport series. I noted the chassis number of his car in those races at the time, but, callow youth that I was, I never thought my records important and now don't know where they are. However, I do remember that the plate was that of a 753. So there are two Rose cars.

David McKinney · 6 May 2003, 18:22 (Ref:591312)

Chris
I didn't mean to suggest B39-07 wasn't kosher - merely doubting its NZ 'provenance'
I don't think Opert took a complete spare car to NZ, but very likely had a spare tub

Armco Bender · 6 May 2003, 19:36 (Ref:591409)

Re Chevron 39 77 07,it says it had a '77 Tech sticker and a '78 Tech sticker,that obviously means it came here twice,in '77 Opert bought B34s here.The Green sticker with the black E is a vehicle registration sticker of the time,it would have been issued in '78 to a whole car.Thats what I'm confused about how could it have been scrutineered in '77 and '78 here without being a whole car?.

Armco Bender · 6 May 2003, 21:00 (Ref:591560)

Ah the penny has dropped why the car has has '77 and '78 stickers.Baypark was raced around the last weekend in Dec '77 and Pukekohe was the first weekend Jan '78.So the car would have been here in 2 years,but just a week apart!.

So it must have been a spare car bought here and possibly unraced.

Bryan Miller · 6 May 2003, 23:06 (Ref:591756)

Chris, looks like your on line.
Hows your heart??????????????
I had forgotten I had them
I have what is apparently all that exists of the March 1973 records for F2 ,
Bryan.

Bryan Miller · 6 May 2003, 23:15 (Ref:591767)

Re. Modus 034 ,untill about 6/8 weeks ago www.carclassic .com had it for sale,perhaps you can enquire of them they are based in Geneva .

Also for sale on this site are ---------
Brabham BT 38-23

Marches ch.nos. 782-16
742-13
742-30
732-012
712M-6
I am going digging again on Richard Scotts T 360

The cars debut was in A/S 11/4/74.
Bryan

Bryan Miller · 7 May 2003, 00:33 (Ref:591816)

Chris, I needed to revisit T-360 to double check dates
As Scott is out of car and Bailey in car at Mallory June 23 , and same weekend Chris Farrell debuts AU-1 at Oran Park , obviously we have proto????? in AUST. and 1st production car ?????? in U.K.
Chris Farrell races in historic over here and ran in U.K. in 1970s as Milldent Motorsport and his brother is Steve Farrell at B.A.R.
After a dispute re. money, Graham Lawrence drove the car at the next rd. at Amaroo Park.

March one cute little number that ran in the Van Heusen series was Englisman Ken Douglas in a March733M/743/3 , which later burnt to a crisp inc. trailer ot Oran Park as they were leaving the circuit.

Armco Bender · 7 May 2003, 04:54 (Ref:591909)

The B39s Rosberg and Rahal raced here in '78 were in the same configuration as the 'Excita'car below,they had the full length side pods,double end plate rear wings and the cockpit window was deeper so you could see the front roll hoop through it.The other Chevron on the other hand looks for all the world like a B34 with a B39 nose cone.It obviusly came down here or bits used in it did,but did they bring a third car here in '78,hopefully Dave McKinney will know the answer to that.It just seems a bit mysterious.
Also did Opert bring cars down here in '79 and never race them?,if they did come who was lined up to drive them and was it true about the apperance money disagreement?.

Bryan Miller · 7 May 2003, 05:41 (Ref:591925)

David McKINNEY, is it poss. for you to have a look at another thread March 772-05 please, and see if you can make anything out of it.
Bryan.