[WEC] BoP. Brilliant or Pants.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by tomcug

Yes, we all know it's conspiracy, no need to repeat yourself And the fact that Cadillac was very strong the entire race doesn't matter at all

How dare you point out the actual actions of the race, violation of the spirit of BoP. we all know it's purely about giving victories to everyone fairly, BoV if you will

[veeten]

Remember, just because it there are adjustments made doesn't mean that it will decide the winner, be it races or overall championships. We, so far, have had different cars and teams place in the final positions. And a lot of that comes down to the drivers and teams themselves, be it an unfortunate accident or a thrilling, winning pass.
The only ones that have a problem with that seems to be the ones that want one particular team to continually win just so that they have a 'bandwagon' to jump onto, an easy pick to make that requires no actual effort. I can understand actual fans that love the sport no matter the circumstances, because it has always been here. Constantly changing, evolving, not choosing to be small in its existance.

[tomcug]

https://en.endurance-info.com/auto/a...imola-unveiled
Quite interesting numbers. Significant weight reduction for Alpine, BMW, Toyota, Ferrari and Isotta. Caddy no longer down on power with big increase, Lambo by similar amount. Conservative BOP for new 9X8 (as expected).

[Adam43]

• First look and the main takeaway seems to be that now Peugeot has been brought closer to others they have taken the opportunity to decrease the weight of everyone else. Suggesting that everyone had to be increased to offset the Peugeot effect! (had to change the scale on the IMSA/WEC power to weight comparison chart!
• Peugeot are given a conservative BoP with the new car.
• Range across others remains fairly narrow and similar magnitude as before.
• Toyota viewed the best and Ferrari gained slightly on them here.
• Porsche reset to middling BoP.
• We have a new table! The Power gain after 210 kph table! Although it is boring at the moment. Zeros everywhere. Is that because we are at Imola?

Weight (Kg)

-- Bulletin --	--- Track ---	TOYOTA	GLICKENHAUS	ORECA	PEUGEOT	CADILLAC	FERRARI	PORSCHE	VANWALL	ALPINE	BMW	LAMBORGHINI	ISOTTA FRAACHINI
8/3/2023	Sebring	1062	1030		1049	1038	1057	1048	1030
8/3/2023	Portimao	1043	1030		1042	1035	1040	1045	1030
31/5/2023	Le Mans	1080	1030		1042	1046	1064	1048	1030
3/7/2023	Monza	1080	1030		1046	1032	1069	1049	1030
3/7/2023	Fuji	1080	1030		1038	1039	1076	1054	1030
3/7/2023	Bahrain	1080	1030		1041	1037	1075	1053	1030
26/10/2023	Bahrain	1080	1030		1041	1030	1075	1046	1030
16/2/2024	Qatar	1089			1030	1032	1075	1048		1070	1060	1041	1085
12/4/2024	Imola	1060			1061	1030	1041	1033		1042	1035	1034	1058
		GR010 Hybrid	-- 007 LMH --	---- R13 ----	---- 9X8 ----	- V-Series.R	--- 499P ----	---- 963 ----	Vandervell 680	A424	M Hybrid V8	SC63	Tipo6-C

Max Power (kW)

-- Bulletin --	--- Track ---	TOYOTA	GLICKENHAUS	ORECA	PEUGEOT	CADILLAC	FERRARI	PORSCHE	VANWALL	ALPINE	BMW	LAMBORGHINI	ISOTTA FRAACHINI
8/3/2023	Sebring	517	520		518	513	515	517	511
8/3/2023	Portimao	512	520		516	513	509	516	512
31/5/2023	Le Mans	512	520		516	513	509	516	512
3/7/2023	Monza	507	520		520	498	497	506	520
3/7/2023	Fuji	514	520		520	505	505	514	520
3/7/2023	Bahrain	514	520		520	504	505	514	520
26/10/2023	Bahrain	514	520		520	504	505	514	520
16/2/2024	Qatar	510			520	499	503	505		510	506	502	514
12/4/2024	Imola	516			510	517	510	508		514	511	516	520
		GR010 Hybrid	-- 007 LMH --	---- R13 ----	---- 9X8 ----	- V-Series.R	--- 499P ----	---- 963 ----	Vandervell 680	A424	M Hybrid V8	SC63	Tipo6-C

Energy Allocation (MJ)

-- Bulletin --	--- Track ---	TOYOTA	GLICKENHAUS	ORECA	PEUGEOT	CADILLAC	FERRARI	PORSCHE	VANWALL	ALPINE	BMW	LAMBORGHINI	ISOTTA FRAACHINI
8/3/2023	Sebring	913	911		909	905	908	912	900
8/3/2023	Portimao	904	913		908	904	899	910	901
31/5/2023	Le Mans	908	913		908	905	901	910	901
3/7/2023	Monza	908	916		914	890	893	899	913
3/7/2023	Fuji	907	909		908	894	898	906	903
3/7/2023	Bahrain	908	909		908	895	901	909	906
26/10/2023	Bahrain	908	909		908	894	901	908	906
16/2/2024	Qatar	914			904	890	902	900		909	904	895	917
12/4/2024	Imola	916			906	908	904	901		909	905	908	920
		GR010 Hybrid	-- 007 LMH --	---- R13 ----	---- 9X8 ----	- V-Series.R	--- 499P ----	---- 963 ----	Vandervell 680	A424	M Hybrid V8	SC63	Tipo6-C

Add Docking Time (s)

-- Bulletin --	--- Track ---	TOYOTA	GLICKENHAUS	ORECA	PEUGEOT	CADILLAC	FERRARI	PORSCHE	VANWALL
8/3/2023	Sebring	1.2	0		1.2	1	1.2	1	0
8/3/2023	Portimao	1.2	0		1.2	1	1.2	1	0
31/5/2023	Le Mans	1.2	0		1.2	1	1.2	1	0
3/7/2023	Monza	1.2	0		1.2	1	1.2	1	0
3/7/2023	Fuji	1.2	0		1.2	1	1.2	1	0
3/7/2023	Bahrain	1.2	0		1.2	1	1.2	1	0
26/10/2023	Bahrain	1.2	0		1.2	1	1.2	1	0
16/2/2024	Qatar	0.2			0.2	0	0.2	0
12/4/2024	Imola	0.2			0.2	0	0.2	0
		GR010 Hybrid	-- 007 LMH --	---- R13 ----	---- 9X8 ----	- V-Series.R	--- 499P ----	---- 963 ----	Vandervell 680

Ft.Depl. Speed (kph in DRY)

-- Bulletin --	--- Track ---	TOYOTA	PEUGEOT	FERRARI	ISOTTA FRAACHINI
8/3/2023	Sebring	190	150	190
8/3/2023	Portimao	190	150	190
31/5/2023	Le Mans	190	150	190
3/7/2023	Monza	190	150	190
3/7/2023	Fuji	190	135	190
3/7/2023	Bahrain	190	135	190
26/10/2023	Bahrain	190	135	190
16/2/2024	Qatar	190	150	190	190
12/4/2024	Imola	190	190	190	190
		GR010 Hybrid	---- 9X8 ----	--- 499P ----	Tipo6-C

Ft.Depl. Speed (kph in WET)

-- Bulletin --	--- Track ---	TOYOTA	PEUGEOT	FERRARI	ISOTTA FRAACHINI
8/3/2023	Sebring	190	150	190
8/3/2023	Portimao	190	150	190
31/5/2023	Le Mans	190	150	190
3/7/2023	Monza	190	150	190
3/7/2023	Fuji	190	150	190
3/7/2023	Bahrain	190	150	190
26/10/2023	Bahrain	190	150	190
16/2/2024	Qatar	190	150	190	190
12/4/2024	Imola	190	190	190	190
		GR010 Hybrid	---- 9X8 ----	--- 499P ----	Tipo6-C

Power gain after 210 kph

-- Bulletin --	--- Track ---	TOYOTA	PEUGEOT	CADILLAC	FERRARI	PORSCHE	ALPINE	BMW	LAMBORGHINI	ISOTTA FRAACHINI
12/4/2024	Imola	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
		GR010 Hybrid	---- 9X8 ----	- V-Series.R	--- 499P ----	---- 963 ----	A424	M Hybrid V8	SC63	Tipo6-C

[veeten]

Okay folks, especially you Adam, here comes the latest BoP balances for Imola.
Looks like Toyota and Ferrari get the break this time...

https://www.sportscar365.com/lemans/...-in-imola-bop/

[Adam43]

I must put the data in some tables and charts. I’ll do that yesterday.

Relatively there aren’t that many changes! The primary change is that everyone has moved together because of the new Peugeot.
Smaller changes are Porsche has lost out a bit and Ferrari have gained verses Toyota.
The power to weight chart shows this best.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I must put the data in some tables and charts. I’ll do that yesterday.

Relatively there aren’t that many changes! The primary change is that everyone has moved together because of the new Peugeot.
Smaller changes are Porsche has lost out a bit and Ferrari have gained verses Toyota.
The power to weight chart shows this best.

IF still seems to be on the odd end of things as a new car.

[tomcug]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Smaller changes are Porsche has lost out a bit and Ferrari have gained verses Toyota.

The interesting thing is now Porsche and Ferrari will run with almost equal BOP so we'll see which one is quicker around Imola without extra adjustments. My bets are on Ferrari but who knows, the 963 is a different beast this year.

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by joeb

IF still seems to be on the odd end of things as a new car.

Yep, sadly hard to explain and understand.

[Adam43]

Seems to be in the middle of everything from a power to weight perspective and has the most power of anything. Compare to the other new car of Peugeot, which is low on power. Ferrari looks like the outlier on weight.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by Adam43

• First look and the main takeaway seems to be that now Peugeot has been brought closer to others they have taken the opportunity to decrease the weight of everyone else. Suggesting that everyone had to be increased to offset the Peugeot effect! (had to change the scale on the IMSA/WEC power to weight comparison chart!
• Peugeot are given a conservative BoP with the new car.
• Range across others remains fairly narrow and similar magnitude as before.
• Toyota viewed the best and Ferrari gained slightly on them here.
• Porsche reset to middling BoP.
• We have a new table! The Power gain after 210 kph table! Although it is boring at the moment. Zeros everywhere. Is that because we are at Imola?

Weight (Kg)

Max Power (kW)
Energy Allocation (MJ)
Add Docking Time (s)

Ft.Depl. Speed (kph in DRY)
Ft.Depl. Speed (kph in WET)
Power gain after 210 kph

Thank you for tabulating and graphing all this data. Super helpful as always!!

[Matador]

Originally Posted by tomcug

The interesting thing is now Porsche and Ferrari will run with almost equal BOP so we'll see which one is quicker around Imola without extra adjustments. My bets are on Ferrari but who knows, the 963 is a different beast this year.

This will be interesting to see for sure. Should be a great litmus test into how much Porsche have really progressed over the winter (hopefully ) as Ferrari have relatively few updates as far as I'm aware.
Toyota should be back into the scope of things as well, with the more realistic weight alleviating any tyre graining issues.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Matador

Thank you for tabulating and graphing all this data. Super helpful as always!!

No problem

The charts show what I've been trying to get at. It is most apparent when you look at power/weight.

I looked at the relative weight, power and power/weight of all competitors verses Toyota and how this changed from Qatar to Imola.

The big mover is Peugeot, however most others, even if they have big movements in Weight, this is somewhat offset in power (Cadillac and Lamborghini).

I guess the power/weight tweaks are to compensate for the characteristics of the car (e.g. acceleration, cornering and top speed).

[Adam43]

A quick comparison of the two car types.

There is a clear distinction between the two types in Power/Weight. This is mainly driven by Weight.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Adam43

A quick comparison of the two car types.

There is a clear distinction between the two types in Power/Weight. This is mainly driven by Weight.

Thanks for the info. It’s so easy to read and see why

[TF110]

These cars are gonna be pretty fast with this bop. If this is a correction for the introduction of the new Peugeot, it must be quite the improvement from the outgoing 9x8. There's other discussions about this new bop with some saying it's most favorable to Toyota because of the power gain and energy allotment for Imola. I wonder though, if Porsche will still be fastest with the weight reduction they received. I think Imola is the type of track where being more nimble is an advantage.

[tomcug]

Originally Posted by TF110

If this is a correction for the introduction of the new Peugeot, it must be quite the improvement from the outgoing 9x8.

Peugeot themselves claim that the new car surprised them in terms of performance so who knows. But still it's the only car BOPed based on homologation data only so their numbers are conservative for sure and I'd be very surprised to see them fight at the front of the pack.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by TF110

These cars are gonna be pretty fast with this bop. If this is a correction for the introduction of the new Peugeot, it must be quite the improvement from the outgoing 9x8.

I’m sure there is an improvement with the Peugeot, otherwise they’ve done a bad job.

However, I wouldn’t take this BoP as a measure of that. They will have set it conservatively because it is a new car as tomcug says.

There's other discussions about this new bop with some saying it's most favorable to Toyota because of the power gain and energy allotment for Imola.

Toyota have gained on power (to some) and weight (to most). But Ferrari have gained more on both, so it is odd to highlight Toyota, but not Ferrari.

I wonder though, if Porsche will still be fastest with the weight reduction they received. I think Imola is the type of track where being more nimble is an advantage.

Other than Cadillac and Lamborghini (and Peugeot) every car has a greater weight drop. Apart from Peugeot every car has a greater power increase.

The Porsche is a good car so I am sure it will do OK, but that won’t be because of there changes.

[TF110]

While the others have dropped more weight, Porsche were pretty far ahead of the others in Qatar, especially considering it didn't lose out as much with tire deg. That seemed like weight was the biggest factor. It didn't lose as much, but it did drop a good 15kg. Imo they'll still be the ones to beat. I just hope it's closer than Qatar and hope the new guys show up this time.

[S griffin]

Hopefully the changes have worked. However Porsche are looking pretty hard to beat right now if Qatar is anything to go by. Seems they have worked out the best way to use the system. Fair play to them. But I'm sure others will catch up with or without BoP

[tomcug]

Thad depends on track too, the 963 wasn't handling the bumps of Sebring as good as other cars did. Long Beach and Imola, we'll see this weekend

[v8supes]

Id like to ask a question if that is ok? Im sure it will have been answered before.

Once a car has been homologated and entered competition is it correct that they cannot bring performance upgrades unless they use 1 of the 5 jokers in place until 2027?

Im just wondering what scope there is for a team like Isotta to improve the performance of the car.

[PhilipR]

Originally Posted by v8supes

Id like to ask a question if that is ok? Im sure it will have been answered before.

Once a car has been homologated and entered competition is it correct that they cannot bring performance upgrades unless they use 1 of the 5 jokers in place until 2027?

Im just wondering what scope there is for a team like Isotta to improve the performance of the car.

it is a case between peak performance and usable performance. Good case in point is the old version of the Peugeot, it met all the homologation requirements and the downforce numbers but could not make use of its performance on a consistent basis meaning on its day it could be very fast like in Qatar but most of the times they failed to reach that level of performance and consistency hence the jokers being used to make the cars not necessarily faster but easier to set up and find a consistent level of performance.

In the case of Isotta it depends if they are willing to spend the money to add performance upgrades. But their biggest issue at the moment I would say is a car that is yet to be fully developped in its current stage and not having 3 world class drivers that can drive it 100% and provide positive feedback on what needs improving. They have quite a bit to sort out before they should consider adding performance jokers I would say

[tomcug]

Originally Posted by v8supes

Once a car has been homologated and entered competition is it correct that they cannot bring performance upgrades unless they use 1 of the 5 jokers in place until 2027?

I'd say yes and no. Some drastic changes like dropping a rear wing on the car will always require manufacturer to use some performance jokers. But more subtle changes can be present as "reliability upgrades" like Porsche did and they get the approval without the use of jokers. But for Isotta jokers aren't that important, they have other issues to solve first.