Honey, we need to talk about our boy Scuderia .. AKA KeystoneF1

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

That is a deep question to unpack. It might imply many things.

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

My point is that Ferrari F1 operates in a specific (and apparently difficult) environment. Of which many environmental factors are out of the control (or there is very little control) of whoever is at the top of the F1 team.

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Why does it seem to be hard for Ferrari to find success? What are those drivers that determine success or failure? Might be it hard for a single person to solve or mitigate enough of those to make the team a success? Are they empowered to solve the problems?

So along my earlier thinking (above quotes), I agree with Joe https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2022...from-poitiers/ Here is a quote from that blog post (bold is from me)...

As to what happens after the Binotto’s funeral pyre burns out, we will have to see. The only people who seem to want the job are people who are not qualified to do it. There have been some pretty wild rumours which I think probably reflects Ferrari’s struggle to find a suitable replacement. It is a poisoned chalice, with far more chance of failure than success, unless the chosen one is given complete freedom and the high-ups at Ferrari are kept out of the equation. Todt did it by insisting that he be left alone and was able to develop the right atmosphere within the team.

You just have to wonder how hard it is for ANYONE to do the job correctly if the overall Ferrari environment might be nearly impossible to navigate.

If Joe is correct (the problem is empowerment and meddling from above), does anyone really think the odds are high that if they just swap anyone else into that role without other changes is going to do a substantially better job than Binotto?

Richard

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

So along my earlier thinking (above quotes), I agree with Joe https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2022...from-poitiers/ Here is a quote from that blog post (bold is from me)...



You just have to wonder how hard it is for ANYONE to do the job correctly if the overall Ferrari environment might be nearly impossible to navigate.

If Joe is correct (the problem is empowerment and meddling from above), does anyone really think the odds are high that if they just swap anyone else into that role without other changes is going to do a substantially better job than Binotto?

Richard

Exactly

[chillibowl]

The team was making too many mistakes and you can’t fire everyone (that would be ridiculous) so you have to find one person to take the fall…and in fairness it’s not like, if given more time, Binotto could have turned things around (more so if you believe the culture at Ferrari is to political and never changing)…so either way he’s the one who had to go and deservedly so right?

Shame they couldn’t demote/reassign him and use him where his real talents are? A significant loss of institutional knowledge and experience. The team will be worse off for it and next year is back to an organizational rebuild.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

The team was making too many mistakes and you can’t fire everyone (that would be ridiculous) so you have to find one person to take the fall…and in fairness it’s not like, if given more time, Binotto could have turned things around (more so if you believe the culture at Ferrari is to political and never changing)…so either way he’s the one who had to go and deservedly so right?

Shame they couldn’t demote/reassign him and use him where his real talents are? A significant loss of institutional knowledge and experience. The team will be worse off for it and next year is back to an organizational rebuild.

I think the above is the standard response in most organizations. But I think a core part of this is that "someone is to be punished" and it is not about improving the situation even if that is really what they say they are doing. And I agree, whoever comes on board will make organizational changes (move people around, remove some people) as they have to justify their existence (why show up and just keep things the same!) So there will be a period of disruption. And only an idiot will come in and say "we will execute and do better in 2023". The smart ones will acknowledge the impact of the organizational changes and rightly say... "This is part of a new rebuilding plan which will take X years". Now.. this assume they put someone smart in. And they may put in a "yes man" who tells them what they want to hear (not good for the team).

This point was mentioned in this article I and others posted earlier in this thread.

https://racingnews365.com/binottos-f...full-backstory

Thus, Ferrari’s fifth rebuilding period, inevitably peppered with talk of ‘three-year plans’, since 2008 will commence late 2023. Thus, the rest of the current formula - which ends in 2025 - can be written off by tifosi.

I am not sure if I agree that they are effectively writing things off up through 2025. Someone might come in and not set them back by implementing a distracting restructuring. But that is the most likely path.

Richard

[Richard C]

Lastly... Binotto might have saved his job (or at least felt backed by his bosses) if he had done his own restructuring and then let a few head roll. But then again, he would just be doing what his bosses are doing. Maybe Binotto felt that even if it put a target on himself, that blaming various people below him in some type of public bloodbath to sooth the Tifosi might not actually fix things. So instead of blaming someone else he allowed himself to be sacrificed?

If I were him. I would probably try to walk a fine line between addressing root causes (not sexy for the press or Tifosi) and some level of "making noise" (i.e. "head will roll") about fixing things. I really don't follow Ferrari, but it just seems like all we heard from them was... not much? Or maybe the press only wanted to keep the blood stirred in the water so they focused on showing them all in clown outfits.

Richard

[Greem]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

He's been with Ferrari since 1995, working first in the engine department and became Team Principal in 2019. So during those 24 years, one would have thought he fully understood the political dynamics at Maranello.

Aye, but in that time the political and financial landscape has changed several times:

1988 Fiat take 90% stake, the old man passes away
1989 TP is Fiorio
1991 TP is Lombardi, di Montezemolo becomes president
1992 TP is Ghedini
1993 TP is Todt (Schumacher era begins)
1995 Binotto arrives
2008 TP is Domenicali
2004 LdM becomes chair of Fiat
2009 Fiat buy a stake in the bankrupt Chrysler
2010 LdM is deposed by Elkann at Fiat, remains at Ferrari
2014 LdM resigns from Ferrari after apparent disagreements with Marchionne, head of FCA, Felisa becomes president
2014 Fiat wholly own Chrysler, announce intention to split Ferrari out of FCA group, TP is Mattiacci
2015 Ferrari spun out, 90% owned by Fiat, TP is Arrivabene
2016 Felisa steps down and Marchionne takes over
2016 Fiat sell remaining share to investors and public, 10% remain with the family
2018 Marchionne departs and is replaced by Elkann (chair) & Camilleri (CEO)
2019 TP is Binotto
2020 Camilleri departs, replaced by Elkann (temporarily)
2021 Vigna becomes CEO, Elkann remains chair
2023 TP is ???

And we wonder why the decision making process within the F1 team is so fraught? There's your answer - from 1991 to 2010 it was Luca di Montezemolo at the top, and for a large chunk of that period Todt was TP, followed by Domenicali. Lovely and stable at the top, unchanging, solid.

Prior to that and since then it's been deckchair rearranging of Titanic proportions.

[chillibowl]

And let’s not forget the hundreds of employees let go or reassigned as the team adapted to life under the budget cap.

Possible that key staff, sound minds in the race strategy dept for example, were let go already?

[greentrumpet]

LeClerc and Sainz must be feeling a bit non-plussed, Domenicali seemed ok to an ordinary fan (me) Arrivabene less so. Binotto has been an important part of Ferrari for 20+ years. It's rumoured his boss interfered with tragedy sorry strategy this year.

[Tourer]

I feel for Binotto as he seems a thoroughly decent and capable man, who understands that problems take time to address - need to fully understand root cause and then address it (as we've seen also with Benz this year). The various others either commenting on Ferrari or part of the structure wanted something "quick & dirty" though and the pressure was on Mr Binotto.

Don't know whether he was pushed or left of his own volition but he's probably much better out of there and gets his life back.

It is likely that him leaving will have a big impact on Ferrari in 2023 - not in a good way. At the very least, getting someone else up to speed will take time.

Personally, I'd really like Ferrari to be genuinely competitive (as they have been on many occasions this year) but in reality, that has only happened in the last 40 or so years when they had the "dream team" there for a few years.

[bathurst77]

I cant see Horner leaving RB to go to Ferrari.
WDC, WCC , 2 brilliant drivers at their peak. The drivers, team owners and managers all love him
Lifes good at the bull.

TP for Ferrari must be one of the stressiest jobs in F1. Everyone is ready to attack you for any misstep. Nothing is good enough for the Tifosi which is nearly the entire Ital ian population and media.

Binotto only took over as boss in 2019, when the team were nowhere, not able to compete. In 3 years he reshaped it and got it to 2nd with 4 wins and some poles this year. Thats no small thing. he deserves credit

Yes there were a LOT of bungles about strategy on race weekend, that probably cost them a championship, and he has to wear that too. Is he the pit strategist on race day? While ultimately he bears responsibility, we need to look at whoever it was on the pit wall making the final pit/tyre etc lap by lap instant decisions

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by Greem

Aye, but in that time the political and financial landscape has changed several times:

1988 Fiat take 90% stake, the old man passes away
1989 TP is Fiorio
1991 TP is Lombardi, di Montezemolo becomes president
1992 TP is Ghedini
1993 TP is Todt (Schumacher era begins)
1995 Binotto arrives
2008 TP is Domenicali
2004 LdM becomes chair of Fiat
2009 Fiat buy a stake in the bankrupt Chrysler
2010 LdM is deposed by Elkann at Fiat, remains at Ferrari
2014 LdM resigns from Ferrari after apparent disagreements with Marchionne, head of FCA, Felisa becomes president
2014 Fiat wholly own Chrysler, announce intention to split Ferrari out of FCA group, TP is Mattiacci
2015 Ferrari spun out, 90% owned by Fiat, TP is Arrivabene
2016 Felisa steps down and Marchionne takes over
2016 Fiat sell remaining share to investors and public, 10% remain with the family
2018 Marchionne departs and is replaced by Elkann (chair) & Camilleri (CEO)
2019 TP is Binotto
2020 Camilleri departs, replaced by Elkann (temporarily)
2021 Vigna becomes CEO, Elkann remains chair
2023 TP is ???

And we wonder why the decision making process within the F1 team is so fraught? There's your answer - from 1991 to 2010 it was Luca di Montezemolo at the top, and for a large chunk of that period Todt was TP, followed by Domenicali. Lovely and stable at the top, unchanging, solid.

Prior to that and since then it's been deckchair rearranging of Titanic proportions.

Marchionne Departs - an odd way of describing his death!

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Marchionne Departs - an odd way of describing his death!

I guess technically it's correct.

He resigned from all positions on 21 July, and sadly passed away on the 25th....


Back to the topic - there is definitely more going on behind the scenes than just Binotto's position at Ferrari. The recent resignation of the entire board of directors at Juventus (including Maurizio Arrivabene) is probably not entirely coincidental to Binotto's resignation.

Exor has a big turmoil on its hands that is larger than just Ferrari - and the Financial Accounts Probe ordered by the Italian Football Federation, which indicated "astonishing" signs of corruption, will be of huge concern. If (I stress IF) there is anything that comes to light in Ferrari's finances at the next round of FIA audits, then Exor will have an even bigger problem on their hands.

I'll repeat - the issues at the top of the Scuderia Ferrari hierarchy are bigger and go further than just F1 at the moment.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Marchionne Departs - an odd way of describing his death!

I was looking at a timeline of appointments and resignations/dismissals, I hadn't got the reasons for them (mostly). So a bit blunt, sorry about that.

[S griffin]

Binotto seemed alright when he first took over, but this season has shown he doesn't seem to cope with the pressure of fighting for the title. Too many bad strategy calls made Max's job easier. They need someone in who can make the right decisions under pressure, although who that is I don't know

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

They need someone in who can make the right decisions under pressure, although who that is I don't know

One of the big challenges for anyone right now is how to handle the uncertainty around the Agnelli/Exor/Stellantis situation in the coming months.

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I guess technically it's correct.

He resigned from all positions on 21 July, and sadly passed away on the 25th....


Back to the topic - there is definitely more going on behind the scenes than just Binotto's position at Ferrari. The recent resignation of the entire board of directors at Juventus (including Maurizio Arrivabene) is probably not entirely coincidental to Binotto's resignation.

Exor has a big turmoil on its hands that is larger than just Ferrari - and the Financial Accounts Probe ordered by the Italian Football Federation, which indicated "astonishing" signs of corruption, will be of huge concern. If (I stress IF) there is anything that comes to light in Ferrari's finances at the next round of FIA audits, then Exor will have an even bigger problem on their hands.

I'll repeat - the issues at the top of the Scuderia Ferrari hierarchy are bigger and go further than just F1 at the moment.

Semantic point scoring as ever , why do we think he resigned?....

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Semantic point scoring as ever , why do we think he resigned?....

Not sure, was there a press release to confirm anything?

[Mike Harte]

Why are some people trying to suck out all the joy of this tremendous site by attempting to constantly prove their point by always responding to what is an perfectly obvious statement? It's almost the equivalent of people insisting that they must have the last word, no matter how ridiculous their response is. Does it give them so much satisfaction?

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Why are some people trying to suck out all the joy of this tremendous site by attempting to constantly prove their point by always responding to what is an perfectly obvious statement? It's almost the equivalent of people insisting that they must have the last word, no matter how ridiculous their response is. Does it give them so much satisfaction?

Well said Mike, and thank you for taking the time to write it. I've certainly noticed a lack of 'interest' all across this forum lately and I think you've pin-pointed the reason why...

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Why are some people trying to suck out all the joy of this tremendous site by attempting to constantly prove their point by always responding to what is an perfectly obvious statement? It's almost the equivalent of people insisting that they must have the last word, no matter how ridiculous their response is. Does it give them so much satisfaction?

[ScotsBrutesFan]

MOD:

Lets settle down here. As with all things Italian emotions can run high, and has lots of arm waving.

Respond to comments in posts, not take jabs - veiled or otherwise - at the person who posted them.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

And let’s not forget the hundreds of employees let go or reassigned as the team adapted to life under the budget cap.

They will have gone to the HAAS design office, a new office on the Ferrari site, or to the Ferrari 499P Le Mans project. So Ferrari did well in that sense, I think they have been able to keep their motorsport engineers on site (albeit some officially working for " HAAS " instead of Ferrari).

Ferrari making Binotto's position untenable puts me in mind of Ferrari attempting to do the same with Jean Todt in 1996. I don't think it is helpful.

The Italian press gave Ferrari a rough ride in the newspapers in the days after the disastrous Magny-Cours weekend, and when Michael Schumacher suffered another engine blow-up in testing last week at Monza, there were renewed calls for change at Maranello. Such was the violence of the reaction that Michael Schumacher went on the offensive in his defense of team manager Jean Todt, the main target for the attacks.

"Jean Todt is one of the best people at Ferrari," said the World Champion at Monza. "If you want to destroy Ferrari, then kick out Todt. If you want the team to grow, let him stay."

Todt had said after the French GP that he was ready to resign from the team if he was asked to do so because of the dreadful results in Canada and France.

GrandPrix.com, July 8, 1996
https://www.grandprix.com/news/press...ari-again.html

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

They will have gone to the HAAS design office, a new office on the Ferrari site, or to the Ferrari 499P Le Mans project. So Ferrari did well in that sense, I think they have been able to keep their motorsport engineers on site (albeit some officially working for " HAAS " instead of Ferrari).

Ferrari making Binotto's position untenable puts me in mind of Ferrari attempting to do the same with Jean Todt in 1996. I don't think it is helpful.


GrandPrix.com, July 8, 1996
https://www.grandprix.com/news/press...ari-again.html

Nice details in this post.

Richard

[Beau2]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

They will have gone to the HAAS design office, a new office on the Ferrari site, or to the Ferrari 499P Le Mans project. So Ferrari did well in that sense, I think they have been able to keep their motorsport engineers on site (albeit some officially working for " HAAS " instead of Ferrari).

Ferrari making Binotto's position untenable puts me in mind of Ferrari attempting to do the same with Jean Todt in 1996. I don't think it is helpful.


GrandPrix.com, July 8, 1996
https://www.grandprix.com/news/press...ari-again.html

Another example of Michael's strong leadership & team building skills. Part of the issue with modern Ferrari is that no-one there has that level of honesty, planning or independent thought.

[S griffin]

I just never got the impression Binotto could step up when it counted and take control. He seemed too often to do nothing when something needed doing.