Interesting Item on New Chassis in Indy Star (Merged)

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I agree. I just hope that if a single chassis is decided upon, the IRL includes the provision for both future engine and chassis manufacturers to be able to take part, economic factors permitting, rather than having a closed shop.

I think if they go the same route with tight regulations and have a single make formula it will be more of the same. Same as in putting everyone to sleep. It will not stimulate a flow of manufacturer dollars nor a flow of fan or business interest to generate the Tv ratings, ticket sales and sponsorship. We need competition. There will be winners and losers but that is the only way to develop some interest.

Having a field full of batmobiles isn't the answer either. Still a single spec. However I'd be open to a compromise to let that in if there was a compromise on the regs. While delta wing is innovative, I don't have confidence that is the way to go. As a driver I would not want to be booting around at 200 mph in a tail heavy tricycle, ground effects aero or not.

[bjohnsonsmith]

I'm not hoping for an other single chassis spec at all. All I'm trying to say and I don't seem to be saying it as well as I should be, is that if a single chassis/engine is decided upon, let the regulations allow for other constructors to come in if they want to but at a later date.

[emjaya]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

On the delta wing, I have a hard time seeing how you turn that thing at low speed. I also sense if it understeers or oversteers it must be a ***** to control.

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...g-project//P2/

•Vehicle weight distribution is necessarily more rearward than traditionally seen with 72.5% of the mass on the larger rear tires
•80% of the aerodynamic downforce acts on the rear of the car

I have a hard time seeing how it corners at any speed.

[JagtechOhio]

Here's the only written information I found:

"Differential features full torque vectoring active technology with driver control of gain for balance adjustment".

One way to give a little context to this is comparing it to a real IndyCar on an oval. By setting tire stagger and weight balance, you're actually making the car point into the corner with the taller right rear tire.

The Delta won't need tire stagger, the driver will will be able to adjust the torque application to the rear wheels.

There is very little weight or downforce on the front of the Delta Wing, which is supposed to have 4" wide front tires. So they're going to point the car, but there will also be a steer-by-wire system, in my estimation.
One way to achieve this would be a potentiometer around the steering pinion, signalling an ECU which then changes the torque balance at the rear wheels.

All the weight and downforce is at the rear, and the electronically controlled differential "turns" the car at the rear to follow the direction you point the front. That's the best I can figure, but I only know something about cars. This is not a car.

The Delta Wing is a marvelous execution of a set of design principles for a motorized vehicle. That's nice. When do the race cars get here?

It has nothing to do with the characteristics any racing driver is familiar with from other race cars they have driven. It has only a remote connection to road car technology in this respect, or to how you and I drive what we drive.

Of course this system has not been built or tested yet, it is a concept that has been simulated. The Delta Wing on display in Chicago did not even have body clearance for the front wheels to turn at all.

There was a real IndyCar at the Chicago auto show, painted in the colors of the Boy Scouts of America. Strangely enough, it was a DP01 since they don't often use Dallaras for show cars. The Boy Scout car is to be run by Dale Coyne Racing. He already owns two Dallaras, but has no operating budget to run them unless he spends his own money to fund one of them.

That's why the whole argument about the cost of the Delta Wing, or any new package, is a side argument. If you gave Vision Racing or Conquest or HVM or N/H/L two FREE Delta cars, they still couldn't afford to run them. Those teams all have race cars now, and there is no confirmation that any of them will be racing any place other than perhaps Indy.

Many of the public relations bubbles floated last Wednesday are just as easy to pop.

[emjaya]

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Btw I always thought the raison d'être of the IRL was for it to be a spec series?

No. The Indy Racing League had multiple chassis and multiple engines in its entire existance until Chevrolet and Toyota left after 2005 and G-Force/Panoz development effectively ended when the last full-time team running them, Rahal Letterman, kicked them to the curb in the middle of the 2006 season because they saw the Dallara was better (and Panoz got the ChampCar contract which was far more profitable). The Panoz would be ran by Playa del Racing in 2 cars at Indianapolis in 2007 in a one-off, and Phil Giebler would attempt to qualify the car at Indianapolis in 2008 but crashed in practice.

IRL Engine history:

1996: any engines that were ran in CART previously could be ran here

1997-2001: Oldsmobile and Infiniti

2002: Chevrolet and Infiniti (GM shut down the Oldsmobile marque the preceding year and switched the badge to Chevrolet)

2003-2005: Chevrolet, Honda, and Toyota (Honda and Toyota leave CART/ChampCar to come over to the IRL, Nissan sees the writing on the wall on what would happen in the 2003 season and drop out of backing the Infiniti engine; the Infiniti engine builder Judd was looking for another car company to badge his engine to continue competing but didn't find any takers)

2006-current: Honda (Honda destroyed everyone in the 2005 season, Chevrolet to the point that Ford built them an engine to keep them competitive; Toyota even though they had teams like Penske and Ganassi were uncompetitive largely and they left after the end of the season to go focus on NASCAR)

IRL Chassis history

1996: any chassis that were ran in CART previously could be ran here

1997: Dallara and G-Force

1998-2000: Dallara, G-Force, and Riley & Scott

2001-2002: Dallara and G-Force (Riley & Scott would only ever get a couple buyers for their car, they were bought by Reynard in 1999 until Reynard went bankrupt in 2001)

2003-2007: Dallara and Panoz (Panoz bought G-Force design and changed the car's name to Panoz; in here is the stillbirth of Falcon, formed by former NASCAR owner Michael Kranefuss and current USF1 car constructor Ken Anderson; they completed a roller chassis but the car never got a buyer and never ran)

2008-current: Dallara (Panoz stopped developing the car in light of the ChampCar contract; the car last ran in a race in the 2007 Indianapolis 500)

[Flyin Ryan]

Possible F-Zero doppelgangers for the Delta Wing. Which do you think is closest?

Blue Falcon:

Little Wyvern:

Red Gazelle:

Spark Moon:

[Félix]

Also interesting is the John Travis designed Penske Indycar for 2003 that was well advanced but wasn't green-lighted by the IRL. My feeling is that "Falcon" was just chosen as a placeholder to keep Penske out with the 3 manufacturers max rule. That car never turned a wheel if I remember correctly. Part of the wasted Penske resources went into extensive wind-tunnel testing of the Dallara anyway.

[Flyin Ryan]

There was a real IndyCar at the Chicago auto show, painted in the colors of the Boy Scouts of America. Strangely enough, it was a DP01 since they don't often use Dallaras for show cars. The Boy Scout car is to be run by Dale Coyne Racing. He already owns two Dallaras, but has no operating budget to run them unless he spends his own money to fund one of them.

That's why the whole argument about the cost of the Delta Wing, or any new package, is a side argument. If you gave Vision Racing or Conquest or HVM or N/H/L two FREE Delta cars, they still couldn't afford to run them. Those teams all have race cars now, and there is no confirmation that any of them will be racing any place other than perhaps Indy.

Let's say a team over a course of a year can expect to receive $3 million in income. That's a combination of the TEAM program, purse money they receive (predominantly Indy), sponsorships, so on and so forth. Doesn't it make sense that the team should try and only spend $3 million over the course of the year? That ensures the team can run the next year as well as this one. Backmarkers in NASCAR start and park because they can take the purse money they receive for starting and it at least covers their operating expenses for that week and keeps the team going, and maybe someday they can get a sponsor or run full races to push themselves up the pecking order. Indycar doesn't even have start & parkers because they don't receive anything comparative to the expenses to get there.

Let's say I bought an Indycar and entered it at the biggest road course race at Long Beach as a one-off. Did all the normal expenses, got myself a driver that I think is competent that I am paying instead of a ride buyer, I have a pit crew with some volunteers mixed in that know what they're doing, I got some local Los Angeles company giving me a little money to put their name on my car but it's not a whole lot, and we're aiming to finish the race in a car that's maybe a year-old we bought from some team like KV or Newman-Haas. How much would that cost for one race and what would I receive for starting from the league and the Long Beach promoter in return? How much ever money I could receive is how much money the Indycar owners need to be spending per race roughly. And that's far more than the initial price of a car, that's personnel, that's engine maintenance, that's chassis maintenance, that's travel, that's meals, that's hotels, that's the shop overhead, etc. The longer I watch this series the more I think the owners and leadership just don't realize that it's not 20 years ago. They acknowledge that NASCAR is far more popular than them but they haven't taken that knowledge and applied it into practice for their business structure. That's one reason why I think the technology should be "dumbed down" for lack of a better phrase. The more complex something is, the more likely it will break and the more expensive it is to fix. And if you create something brand new and exclusive that's not used anywhere else (mainly engine here), than of course it's going to cost a lot for a program over the season.

Even if we put in a budget cap, what kind of budget cap would make sense for most of the grid comparative to the money they receive in return if the Hulman-George family is not subsidizing them? And this sets aside my main problem with budget caps to start with, that I don't think they are enforceable. If Roger or Chip or Michael want to do some development and it takes them over the cap, they will, and no one will be able to stop them.

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by Félix

Also interesting is the John Travis designed Penske Indycar for 2003 that was well advanced but wasn't green-lighted by the IRL. My feeling is that "Falcon" was just chosen as a placeholder to keep Penske out with the 3 manufacturers max rule. That car never turned a wheel if I remember correctly. Part of the wasted Penske resources went into extensive wind-tunnel testing of the Dallara anyway.

Lola was also in contention.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

Here's the only written information I found:

"Differential features full torque vectoring active technology with driver control of gain for balance adjustment".

One way to give a little context to this is comparing it to a real IndyCar on an oval. By setting tire stagger and weight balance, you're actually making the car point into the corner with the taller right rear tire.

The Delta won't need tire stagger, the driver will will be able to adjust the torque application to the rear wheels.

There is very little weight or downforce on the front of the Delta Wing, which is supposed to have 4" wide front tires. So they're going to point the car, but there will also be a steer-by-wire system, in my estimation.
One way to achieve this would be a potentiometer around the steering pinion, signalling an ECU which then changes the torque balance at the rear wheels.

All the weight and downforce is at the rear, and the electronically controlled differential "turns" the car at the rear to follow the direction you point the front. That's the best I can figure, but I only know something about cars. This is not a car.

The Delta Wing is a marvelous execution of a set of design principles for a motorized vehicle. That's nice. When do the race cars get here?

It has nothing to do with the characteristics any racing driver is familiar with from other race cars they have driven. It has only a remote connection to road car technology in this respect, or to how you and I drive what we drive.

Of course this system has not been built or tested yet, it is a concept that has been simulated. The Delta Wing on display in Chicago did not even have body clearance for the front wheels to turn at all.

There was a real IndyCar at the Chicago auto show, painted in the colors of the Boy Scouts of America. Strangely enough, it was a DP01 since they don't often use Dallaras for show cars. The Boy Scout car is to be run by Dale Coyne Racing. He already owns two Dallaras, but has no operating budget to run them unless he spends his own money to fund one of them.

That's why the whole argument about the cost of the Delta Wing, or any new package, is a side argument. If you gave Vision Racing or Conquest or HVM or N/H/L two FREE Delta cars, they still couldn't afford to run them. Those teams all have race cars now, and there is no confirmation that any of them will be racing any place other than perhaps Indy.

Many of the public relations bubbles floated last Wednesday are just as easy to pop.

We used to have people showing up at Indy with all kinds of funky stuff.

What happened to the spirit of Indy?

I would have to say I'm disappointed at the reaction of contemporary racing fans toward something new and funky.

Am I enamored with how it looks? No, I would prefer to see something with a wider front and a much smaller vertical stabilizer, but making the front wider would blow away the concept of lap times similar to current cars using only 300 HP.

I would like to see innovation come back to racing. Somebody does something innovative, and all the fans used to the same old, same old for the last 30 years blast it. I guess I'm just stuck in the good old days.

[JagtechOhio]

If the picture of reactionary thinking is one you are haning on me, wrong move.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

No. The Indy Racing League had multiple chassis and multiple engines in its entire existance until Chevrolet and Toyota left after 2005 .....

I stand corrected; thanks for the information.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by miatanut

We used to have people showing up at Indy with all kinds of funky stuff.

What happened to the spirit of Indy?

I would have to say I'm disappointed at the reaction of contemporary racing fans toward something new and funky.

Am I enamored with how it looks? No, I would prefer to see something with a wider front and a much smaller vertical stabilizer, but making the front wider would blow away the concept of lap times similar to current cars using only 300 HP.

I would like to see innovation come back to racing. Somebody does something innovative, and all the fans used to the same old, same old for the last 30 years blast it. I guess I'm just stuck in the good old days.

Yeah what did happen to the spirit of indy?

Well I know one person responsible but beyond that there is more.

I have two hypothesis for where the "spirit of indy" may have gone:

1. We live in a climate of fear and in exchange for "security" we have handed over freedom to be bound under zealous bureaucrats and lawyer heavy regulation. That type of thinking has spread into to motorsport. The Nascar CoT was just about designed by lawyers. People and organizations are scared of competition as we might offend someone or hurt their feelings. "Leveling the playing field" like all good socialism creates a equal opportunity for boredom and mediocrity.

2. The CART race at Texas in 2001 was a good thing. It showed us the human body has a limit and fantasies about whipping around at 270 mph are just that, fantasies. The limit has been found and reached at indy over 10 years ago(around 240 mph). That limit found, people have moved onto other interests. What is the challenge? Something like the Dakar is 10 times the challenge that indy presents.

So again I think there is some rational way of designing some regs that present a suitable challenge and something that would be appealing to all. I am positive that there are some brilliant minds out there that can do this.

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

The Nascar CoT was just about designed by lawyers.

Dunno about that, but the fact remains that the CoT has allowed several drivers to walk away completely uninjured from some quite vicious crashes in recent years. And that is a good thing, "designed by lawyers" or not.

[nickyf1]

such a beautiful car

EDIT: didntrealise that was on the last page.. it was in regards to the DP01

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

There was a real IndyCar at the Chicago auto show, painted in the colors of the Boy Scouts of America. Strangely enough, it was a DP01 since they don't often use Dallaras for show cars. The Boy Scout car is to be run by Dale Coyne Racing.

Where does Dale Coyne Racing intend to run this DP01?

[JagtechOhio]

to bjohnson: at any car show they can afford to trailer it to.

to Star:

#1 is a little too paranoid for me

#2 is quite profound. Excellent perspective.

to miata:

Long Beach, 2006: Imagine a GM guy says to an IndyCar owner, "Come here, check this out". And he shows him the 500 HP 2.0 litre Ecotec turbo in Rhys Millen's Formula Drift car.

Or maybe between 2002 and the summer of 2008, some poindexter IndyCar Engineer reads an article about the engine, or reads the book GM wrote about it.

And in the summer of 2008, Poindexter is sitting under the hospitality tent with his Boss, the rich owner. "Me and my pals think this racing sucks", says the boss, "And the IRL won't do anything to change it!!"

"How about if we build our own?" says Poindexter, who has a pedegree as big as his balls. "I can build it, test it in our tunnel, and we can ram it down everybody's throat when it's time to put it on the track!"

"Great", says the Boss, "What do you need?

"$100K, and a few month's work out of two guys from the carbon fiber shop, same for two mechanics, and a few puchase orders to the machine shop." Says Poindexter. "And one of the extra Dallaras"

After the Boss gets a pat on the back from all his pals, Poinsy gets the OK. So he spends all of his ample spare time in 2009 working on the car. He buys a 2.0 Ecotec turbo racing engine, or builds one with GM factory competition parts he can order online. Output of 575 HP will git 'r done, these motors pump 1000HP in drag race builds. He has an adapter plate made up in the machine shop, bolts the engine on the back of the Dallara tub, and starts to plummin'.

A little CFD time in his deluxe office to determine cooling requirements, intercooler placement, get the sidepod internal aerodynamics right. Yank off the honking air box and draw the new engine cowling. "Hey, look at that: the rear wing is now more efficient without that toilet in the way, we can run even less drag !".

Another P.O. to the fab shop, we need a bell housing adapter and a pair of X braces for reinforcement. Take out the driver equivilancy weight, trim off what else we can (smaller radiator ond oil tank?), run a lighter fuel load, and guess what: same power to weight ratio. The Boss is gonna like this.

So Poindexter walks into the Boss' office last Monday. "It's ready", he says.

"Great", says the Boss, "Do you need my big red tarp? For the Auto Show?"

"Nah, but you might want to call G.M. and ask them to come to Barber next week. When they see the car, maybe they will want to pay us to paint their name on the side of a Dallara I 3 / Ecotec turbo".

And they can sell the kit to anyone else who wants to build one during the 2010 season. No rush, they can still run the old junk. No waste, 'cause the same engine is going in the new chassis.

Which Dallara can now design and build, now that they finally have an engine spec. So do independant builders who have Mazda, Ford Duratec, Audi, AER and even Subaru engines already on their dynos. Or the new Ford EcoBoost or BMW 4 cyl. turbo.

At the latest, the 2011 grid has Dallara I 3 chassis with at least two different engines. If Chevy doesn't want to buy the badge, maybe Vauxhall will. Same engine.

At the latest, the 2012 grid has the Dallara I 12 chassis there too...the red one, #3with the front wheel fairings. It's a race car, not a rear wheel steering, traction and active suspension controlled, full ground effect, weird looking design exercise. You can race it against the guys who still can't afford one.

Everybody gets the same tires. Same fuel, use the flow regulation to establish equivilancy if you must. Maybe slap some lead in the I 12 if you have to. Stick the Swift light-up strips on all the cars, and light 'em up.

Dallara I 3/ Honda for the guys who can't afford new gear,

Dallara I 3/ GM for the guys who want to buy the Boss' engine, or build their own. It will be cheaper than the Honda in the long run, if not right from the starting line.

Dallara I 12 with a GM or whatever else you want to screw in under 2.3 liters. Buy a new chassis WHEN you can afford one.

Anybody else who wants to build a chassis to fit the specs, be my guest. You want to build a clown car, no thanks. You want to gamble your own money and build a competing chassis, that's your move to make.

Just like the old days.

Too late? If they wrote the engine spec today, the grids above would be real for 2011 and 2012.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

to bjohnson: at any car show they can afford to trailer it to.

By run I thought you meant race the car, rather than exhibiting or displaying it.

[JagtechOhio]

My mistake for the confusion.

The Dp 01 is a show car. That's not the car they were to race. It is not legal.

Dayle Coyne Racing was to race the #19 Boy Scouts of America Dallara/ Honda. He has stated he will do so with his own money if necessary, and no driver or schedule has been announced.

He has no funding or driver yet announced for the #18 car, formerly the Z Line Dallara / Honda of Justin Wilson.

[climb]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

... Another reason why Honda and Toyota pulled out of F1 was they ceased to lack having much of a technical challenge anymore.....

I disagree; they were just fed up with spending money and having their image (not promoted but) spoiled by poor results

The reason you cite is good to explain why manufacturers quit when winning (es Lancia quitting rallies at the end of 80's), not when they get their ass kicked every now and then.

[JagtechOhio]

Hey Star,

You know Joey T. in Denver? Met him over the phone last night.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

Hey Star,

You know Joey T. in Denver? Met him over the phone last night.

No, have no idea who that is.

[JagtechOhio]

Ok, thanks. Former owner from out your way, I thought you may have crossed paths.

[Stefvh]

http://www.lolacars.com/photo_gallery.asp#image289