HTP for 1965 TVR Grantura MK111 1800S

[ixxifan]

Hello all
I'm hoping you knowledgeable people can help. I've arranged to look at a 'barn find' 1965 TVR Grantura mk111 1800S. I'd like to buy it to rebuild as a race car and wondered it it's eligible for HTP papers? It has a chassis number starting with 65/5/****. I've had some conflicting views about gaining an HTP for it and wanted to know before I make the seller an offer. Any/all advice much appreciated.
Thanks
Steve

[terence]

Papers should not pose any problem at all,as long as it is 65 and no later.Is this the Yellow one thats been on the market for quite some time?
Be very carefull with these car's,if the body is still bonded to the chassis,you could well be faced with a new chassis project,the chassis are easily available from David Gerrald.Bodys[new ]are also available.Both body and chassis are not badly priced ,I would be budgeting 30/35k for a competitive car,time the mechanicals are brought up to spec,good luck with it,they are a lot of fun to drive with 180BHP on tap from an ally headed engine.

[ixxifan]

Thanks for the advice Terence. Its not the yellow one. The one I'm going to look at is a C reg red car apparently the original owner couldn't pay a bill to a mechanic who'd done some work it so he left it. The mechanic has had it in a barn for 25 years. It seems complete but of course it'll need a full restoration. I'm going to look at it on Wednesday next week.
Steve

[FISCracer]

The good news is that you have a precedent in that Mark Ashworth races an 1800S in FIA events, although to my knowledge this model was never raced in international events in period; there was some disquiet when Mark got papers for his. I'd speak to an FIA scrutineer like Jim Lowry or John Hopwood just to make sure, before committing myself.

I agree with Terry about cost; should you have the money I see Roy Stephenson's ex works car which is quite competitive is Racecarsdirect.com for £40k

Good luck

Richard

[terence]

See-ing as Mark now has his HTPs,there should be no reason for them not to be granted,so go ahead with you're project and good luck.

[esper]

Make sure it has a round tube frame and triumph front suspension (spitfire/herald uprights like a formula ford)

[zefarelly]

600kg, ha ha . . .

really ?

when was it homologated ? in the 90's with Marcos GT etc ?

[zefarelly]

new single layer shells and T45 chassis I presume ?

my old Vixen was about 750 with a half cage in it, it had genuine TVR doors and bonnet though

[Jeremy Hall]

Appendix J had a schedule posted in it which dictated the minimum weight for GTS cars. THe schedule was based on the engine size-bigger engines equalled greater weight. So if you were a smart manufacturer you went to the schedule checked the minimum wieght for the engine size and bingo homologated weight.
Thus 1800 cc equals 600 Kgs. TVR and Marcos both have 1800 cc engines.
Simple if you know (knew) how

[jonners]

I know this is off topic but.....

...be careful when raising eyebrows about Marcos weights

My Dad bought a wooden one new in the sixties and sprinted it for years. With a pre crossflow Ford engine he weighed it at less than 450 kgs on a properly clibrated weighbridge

When he sold it back to Jem Marsh (who raced it for several years) Jem said it was considerably overweight...

People seem to find it hard to believe...

I used to sit in it making brum brum noises when I was ittle - knowing what I know now I wouldn't even sit in it....

[terence]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Hall

Appendix J had a schedule posted in it which dictated the minimum weight for GTS cars. THe schedule was based on the engine size-bigger engines equalled greater weight. So if you were a smart manufacturer you went to the schedule checked the minimum wieght for the engine size and bingo homologated weight.
Thus 1800 cc equals 600 Kgs. TVR and Marcos both have 1800 cc engines.
Simple if you know (knew) how

So BMC really cocked up with the "B" then, ---t!!

[Jeremy Hall]

Originally Posted by terence bower

So BMC really cocked up with the "B" then, ---t!!

Well that was just one of them Terry ha ha ha-then there was the C, the Allegro, the Marina -oh dear it just goes on

[terence]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Hall

Well that was just one of them Terry ha ha ha-then there was the C, the Allegro, the Marina -oh dear it just goes on

I thought you once told me that "You never Joked" Jeremy.

[LYNX]

Slightly off at a tangent - how do you find if it is possible to obtain HTP papers for a car, for example early Lotus Sevens - and how do you find which events you can then enter? P.M.'s if you feel it is off topic. Thanks.

[Jeremy Hall]

In reply to the Seven question, the requirement of International Motor sport has always been that any car complies with a given set of formulaic requirements and latterly Appendix K requires that applicant vehicles complied in period with those requirements.So, in essence, an Appendix K car today should be as it was then.
The Appendix of the International Sporting code which deals with contemporary cars is Appendix J today and in the 1950's was Appendix C.
Appendix C/J has always required that any vehicle must have at least one door.
The Seven has none -so it has never complied, never did an international so is not eligible for Appendix K or an HTP

[LYNX]

Thanks Jeremy. Can anybody give information as to where to look to find out where cars are accepted for events - or is a question of trolling through every series regs? Again PM if not considered on theme. Cheers.

[terence]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Hall

In reply to the Seven question, the requirement of International Motor sport has always been that any car complies with a given set of formulaic requirements and latterly Appendix K requires that applicant vehicles complied in period with those requirements.So, in essence, an Appendix K car today should be as it was then.
The Appendix of the International Sporting code which deals with contemporary cars is Appendix J today and in the 1950's was Appendix C.
Appendix C/J has always required that any vehicle must have at least one door.
The Seven has none -so it has never complied, never did an international so is not eligible for Appendix K or an HTP

Thank god for that,theres enough out there to bugger up the grids already!

[terence]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

new single layer shells and T45 chassis I presume ?

my old Vixen was about 750 with a half cage in it, it had genuine TVR doors and bonnet though

The chassis is cds tubing,the body is three layer glass,dont forget that more is known about resins etc these days.Plus of course the Vixen has a bit more length=weight

[zefarelly]

the vixen was actually reasonably solid!

I know what your saying Johnners, the same can be said about my Rochdale, it'll probably be 700 kg with a cage and some reinforcements, as well as its original 'heavy duty' build spec, apparently the 'lightweight' was 450kg or thereabouts, obviously it was lethally thin

[esper]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

the vixen was actually reasonably solid!

I know what your saying Johnners, the same can be said about my Rochdale, it'll probably be 700 kg with a cage and some reinforcements, as well as its original 'heavy duty' build spec, apparently the 'lightweight' was 450kg or thereabouts, obviously it was lethally thin

I do remember Yves Courage having his carbon fiber sheets in a secure locker in the eighties. lucky you , its cheap these days as any punter uses it in a dragged Astra. 500kgs piece of cake!!!!!!!!! (means a cheap budget on brake pads)

[simon drabble]

sorry to restart an old thread but what is the difference between an 1800s and a Mk111? They are both pre 66 HTP papered but presumably the 1800s is better - why?

[Thurner_fan]

From mid-1962 until December 1965 TVR produced the following distinct models:

(i) TVR Grantura MkIII [round tail]
(ii) TVR Grantura MkIII 1800 [round tail, profiled rear number plate]
(iii) TVR Grantura 1800S [Kamm tail but otherwise the same as (ii)]

Only (i) and (ii) were homologated,with FIA papers numbers 68 (dated 10/8/62) and 160 (dated 12/4/64) respectively.

The number 68 papers for the original MkIII specify a 1622cc engine whilst the later papers show the 1798cc 'B' engine that became the standard factory fitted engine from August 1963. It is believed that some pre-August '63 MkIII cars were fitted with the larger engine, but only as a customer requested option.

Almost without exception, the racers out there today build their cars to the spec contained in homolgation papers number 160 i.e. they are racing a TVR Grantura MkIII 1800. In addition to the larger engine this later set of Grantura papers allows them to fit a limited slip differential and 6 inch rims.

The car in (iii) above was never separately homologated but was essentially the same as the car in (ii) except it had the cut-off tail that had been introduced by TVR for use on the later Griffiths. The FIA have chosen to allow cars with this bodyshape to be papered and run as MkIII 1800 cars. This treatment seems slightly at odds with the approach taken with Griffiths, but there you go.

By the way, it should be noted that when Martin Lilley took TVR over in winter 1965 he used up the remaining parts store for the 1800S to continue building a few examples of the same car into early 1966, but he altered the name of the car slightly to 'TVR Grantura MkIII 1800S' and changed the chassis numbering system. This may be the source of some of the confusion.

Note : The later TVR MkIV 1800S was homologated in 1967 and is a different car as it has a longer wheelbase (90"), wider track and the engine moved slightly forward so as to allow the fitment of an MGB heater box.

So, to answer the question, for racing purposes there is quite a big difference between and 1800S and a simple MkIII. However, there is no difference apart from the shape of the tail between an 1800S and a MkIII 1800.

The problem is, most people don't know there is a distinction between and, indeed, two different sets of homologation papers covering the MkIII and the MkIII 1800.

Whilst running the risk of boring the pants off many readers I hope this clarifies things a little.

TF

[simon drabble]

that is very kind - thanks. I am going to PM you

[John Turner]

Superb post TF; very interesting and great clarification.

[simon drabble]

it is John - I guess the point is this, could the FIA decide to take HTP from manx tailed cars if the same way that they have moved the goalposts on the Griffith?

I presume if the difference is purely cosmetic they are fairly relaxed as it is not enhancing performance - or does it?