Scary - Cannot insure motorhome when racing

[haggispeed]

I hope this may be of some use to people. We now use a small motorhome for towing to meetings. Ringing around to get the insurance renewal quote I have found, quite by chance, that NONE of the brokers are prepared to offer insurance on a motor home if it is ever going to be taken to and parked in a motor racing paddock !!!!, apparently an "unacceptable risk". I have been going racing for 20 yrs and the paddocks are full of motorhomes (apparently all uninsured..... ??) They won't even insure me and let me accept that it would be uninsured while at an event !!! I am just astounded by it. In my experience motor racing paddocks are pretty secure places, a few tools can go missing if you leave them out but not vehicles, in my experience anyway. I checked my exisiting policy and there's the usual exclusions for racing, rallies etc but nothing about paddocks, apparently it's the actual insurerers not the brokers that have this as a very specific exclusion.
I'm going to follow this up and if anyone's interested will update the thread when I find out more.

[ss_collins]

try moris - should be in the back of MN - or ask one of the motorsport RV specialists - in Autosport or MN

[MGDavid]

..ta... would be interested in any follow-up as I'm about to go down the same route.

[R59]

Talk to the NFU-Mutual, in the Louth, Lincolnshire, branch (the only one that deals with motorhomes).

You can have the exceptional NFU Mutual cover, wherever you may be.

Quite a lot of companies offer you no accident cover off road, some don't even cover you properly in public car parks! Some policies are so cunningly worded that you are insured until you make a claim, then they find some lame excuse in the small print so they don't pay out! Be very careful when you insure a motorhome, remember, it's not just a vehicle.

Rob.

[Pug620]

Insure it on a motor trader policy the ones were you are covered to drive any vehicle .

Luckly i have my work policy covers me for the camper van as well .

Marty

[Al Weyman]

motor traders policys are getting very hard to get now with restrictions put on the time you can own motors in stock and records required according to a guy in the shop the other day. It sounds to me they are trying to discourage the actually towing of race vehicles with Motorhomes as lets face it some of these rigs with a trailer in tow must be worst than driving an artic unit and trailer for which you would need a top class HGV licence.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by hawkesfire

Insure it on a motor trader policy the ones were you are covered to drive any vehicle .

Luckly i have my work policy covers me for the camper van as well .

Marty

You need to be careful on this. I don't know the wording or small print on motor traders policies but with fully comp insurance where the insured in covered to drive a vehicle not owned by him or her, the vehicle itself being driven must be insured or you will not be covered.
I suppose this would be because it is illegal to put a vehicle on the public highway un-insured.

[Al Weyman]

Yeah maybe alright to show the police if you are stopped but you have a major incident and just watch them (the insurers) wriggle.

[Pug620]

OK point taken our motor trader policy at work is quite a complexed one and it has run for over 30 years and we do have to list all vehicles owned by us but i did check this out when i bought a new camper and i did tell them about the car tariler/ racing ect

But i think they are more concerned over the fire trucks we drive as they are priced at over 500k each .

[Al Weyman]

Individual companies especially if you have been with them a long time like you have I am sure will cut you some slack if you are spending a lot with them and have a good record but I think to try and get a new policy today especially if you are not really in the trade is very difficult. I did try recently and I am very friendly with the insurance agents on the same parade as my shop and I put it to them I needed a traders tyoe policy as I have to manouver vans about while signwriting them and they told me they just could not help me.

[R59]

Had the same grief Al. I work on "blue light" vehicles, and occaisionally I have to road test them. Thankfully, most of the fleet managers I work for, sanction me to drive them, therefore I'm covered under their own insurance. Those that don't... they have to provide a driver to assist me in commissioning a vehicle, or get a driving instructor to accompany me (where I teach them how to drive!!! snigger!)

A trader policy won't give you much cover if your motorhome goes up in smoke while you're frying the bacon on the cooker in an attempt to distract your fellow competitors parked around you....

Rob.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

............lets face it some of these rigs with a trailer in tow must be worst than driving an artic unit and trailer for which you would need a top class HGV licence.

As lot of them are just van equivalent motorhomes (small Transit, Fiat, Peugeot derived etc) they will be overweight either on the rear axle or gross train weight. This would be another get out for insurers plus the BiB and VOSA are getting hot on this.

[StephenRae]

Slightly off thread...but I wonder when a van stops being a van and starts being a 'motorhome'. I have plans to fit a cooker sink etc. in a Fiat Ducato box van which will be used to carry my car. What kind of a can of worms will I be opening if I tell the insurers or worse what may be the consequences if I don't?

[b1ackcr0w]

And does anybody know if the same sort of problem would occur with a Caravan?

[haggispeed]

Don't have an update yet but will be speaking to the underwriters this morning for clarification. I spent last night reading the whole policy book and there's nothing in there about paddock parking so we'll see what they say.
As for Motorhome insurance I have always taken out a specialist Motorhome policy which covers all your camping, outdoor gear etc, high value on personal effects, awnings, cover for gas explosion etc, (so we're safe cooking the bacon butties Racing59 )
So I'd rather stay with a specialist cover than just a general insurance.
Updates to come

[Ali Rushforth]

We once had the same sort of problems with insuring an ex-police LDV riot van.

The problem with getting insurance to cover you in the paddock, for us, was the insurance company was under the impression that the van would be parked right next to circuit, therefore if a race car was to crash, it would hit the van!!! They took a lot of persuasion to believe that the paddocks at most car racing ciruits are at least 10 meters away, therefore not at risk from crashing race cars.

With regards when does a van stop being a van. When we bought the Riot Van, we thought it was just a standard 3.5T LDV, but when MOT time came, it transpired that the police up the weight of their vehicles to comensate the carrying of officers, equipment and the usual friday/sat night drunks, so to get us out of paying extra for MOT etc, we put a temperary sink in the back complete with air bed, thus making it a camper, which is allowed to be more than 3.5T.

We now have a newer LDV Convoy, ex minibus, turned day van, complete with cooker, fridge, sink etc, but not sure who it's insured with (my Dad looks after that) but we didn't have any problems what so ever (i think its the "quote me happy" people)

Hope that helps!!!

[haggispeed]

Phew - panic over ! Called the actual insurers but they were distinctly unhelpful so went back to brokers and spoke to them again, the sticking point seemed to pivot around whether the vehicle will actually go anywhere near the racetrack or pitlane. They then called the insurers and although it is still somewhat a grey area they will continue insurance. Lets just hope I never have to find out if it really is covered but at least they have been made aware of the situation.
As for caravans b1ackcr0w I think the same would apply, but if you want to spend a few hours chasing people on the phone be my guest and it's not only competitiors who have motorhomes and caravans at circuits, many marshals do to.
As for your question on you conversion Stephen, it might be worth getting a quote from a Motorhome specialist brokers such as MCIA or Safeguard but I would expect the premium would be higher on a "self build" plus if you're keeping the car in it as well could be a problem, but at least you'd be covered against exploding bacon butties
Oh and the icing on the cake - managed to get the renewal quote reduced slightly too.

[zefarelly]

Originally Posted by StephenRae

Slightly off thread...but I wonder when a van stops being a van and starts being a 'motorhome'. I have plans to fit a cooker sink etc. in a Fiat Ducato box van which will be used to carry my car. What kind of a can of worms will I be opening if I tell the insurers or worse what may be the consequences if I don't?

this is what I'm thinking of doing . . . I'd be very interested to find out what the deal is . . .not sure I'll go as far as a shower, toilet, open fire place, but a van/transporter which doubles as a camper is the idea

[ss_collins]

bear in mind it can be a van when on the road and a motorhome off it. If the fitting ar not permanent (ie quick release) then its just a load.

[Al Weyman]

Stephen, if you don't tell the insurers about ANY modification from standard even if you bolt a set of alloy wheels of the same size on they will wriggle believe me. Also once you put windows in a commercial vehicle and change its use you will find that the government may well take an interest. I know the rules have changed a bit over the years and I am not 100% sure but it used to be if the van was fitted with windows then it attracted vehicle tax which a commercial did not and a percentage based on the value of the vehicle would have to be paid to the government. I am going back years here though when we used to cnvert VW vans but I would not mind betting the rules are still similiar. This is why a coach conversion was always seen as the way to go as the windows were there already and there was no penalty for going the other way i.e. blocking them out.

[R59]

A motorhome, by definition, has somewhere to sleep, and cook, which must be fixed and not removable.

From the DVLA Website: (MAM = Maximum Allowable Mass - used to say Gross Weight!)

All drivers who passed a car test before 1 January 1997 retain their existing entitlement to tow trailers until their licence expires. This means they are generally entitled to drive a vehicle and trailer combination up to 8.25 tonnes MAM. They also have entitlement to drive a minibus with a trailer over 750kgs MAM.

Drivers who hold subcategory C1+E - limited to 8.25 tonnes MAM, may apply for provisional entitlement to the new subcategory C1+E, in order to take and pass the test which will increase their combined vehicle and trailer entitlement to 12 tonnes MAM. It is not necessary to gain subcategory C1 entitlement first but drivers have to meet higher medical standards, and pass both the category C theory test and the subcategory C1+E practical test.

LARGE GOODS VEHICLE AND PASSENGER CARRYING VEHICLE LICENCES HELD BEFORE 1 JANUARY 1997

Since 1 January 1997 all drivers who hold category C or D entitlement have been limited to trailers up to 750kgs MAM; Category C+E or D+E must be held in order to tow trailers in excess of this.

End of quote

According to VOSA - The maximum weight of a trailer with brakes is 3500Kg. It is recommended that the trailer weighs no more than 80-85% of the vehicle that is pulling it. ie: if your trailer (with the car on it) weighs 1600kg, your "tug" needs to weigh around 2000Kg. VOSA will declare vehicle combinations outside of that as "unsafe".

My trailer is 3500kg gross, my motorhome weighs 5800kg with full tanks thereabouts, therefore I need a C + E (Class 1 HGV in old money) to drive that combination on the roads of this sceptred isle. Good job that I do then!.

I've seen some scary combinations in my time. I think the best I ever saw was a Rover SD1 towed by an Astra on a single axle trailer. Frightening.

[Al Weyman]

My old Range Rover has a phenomenal capacity, I think it is rated to tow a 3800kg braked trailer which is double that of say a SWB Transit van at 1800kgs.

[R59]

But it goes back to the VOSA spec:

http://www.vosa.gov.uk/vosa/publicat...&id=42c2a6af19

Those that don't want to click on it, one valid point is:

No motor vehicle or trailer shall be used for any purpose for which it is unsuitable as to cause, or be likely to cause danger or nuisance to any person in or on the vehicle or trailer or on a road.

That could be interpreted as "you must be joking, you ain't towing 'that' with 'that' - it is not safe".

I would interpret the nuisance part as a way of banning caravans from the A11 between Norwich and Newmarket, between the hours of 0130 on Monday, through to 2359 on Sunday. That should give them plenty of time to clear that section. (Caravans towed by racing support vehicles, driven by psycopaths may be exempt)

[JohnD]

All,
The concerns about motorhomes expressed by the insurers would apply to a road car just as well. Anyone had problems with their tow CAR insurance in this respect?

John