[WEC Race] WEC 2013 Round 1: Silverstone

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by TF110

I said last year. Not last Silverstone. At some points in the eeason Toyota were a second faster. Sometimes .500, not saying Silverstone was that track.

Because this topic deals with Silverstone, I assumed you meant "last year Silverstone".

Earlier you said that Toyota was "over a second faster than Audi" last year. Now you are saying that they were "a second faster" on some points in the season. Which metric are you using? Which track do you mean?

This is a comparison of the median lap time:

car	Silverstone	Interlagos	Bahrain	Fuji	Shanghai
Audi #1	1:47.496	1:25.702	1:49.474	1:29.959	1:51.601
Audi #2	1:47.745	1:25.601	1:49.486	1:30.723	1:51.308
Toyota #7	1:47.185	1:25.212	1:48.772	1:30.027	1:50.743
diff	-0.311	-0.389	-0.702	+0.068	-0.565

This is a comparison of the average of the 20% fastest lap times:

car	Silverstone	Interlagos	Bahrain	Fuji	Shanghai
Audi #1	1:46.581	1:24.780	1:48.359	1:29.310	1:50.840
Audi #2	1:46.588	1:24.805	1:48.504	1:29.802	1:50.580
Toyota #7	1:46.011	1:24.279	1:48.099	1:29.328	1:49.854
diff	-0.570	-0.501	-0.270	+0.018	-0.726

Note that the comparison of the Bahrain lap time is not so meaningful, since the Toyota did not finish the race.

Perhaps you are considering ultimate pace, instead of consistent race pace?

This is a comparison of the qualifying time:

car	Silverstone	Interlagos	Bahrain	Fuji	Shanghai
Audi #1	1:43.663	1:23.332	1:45.888	1:27.639	1:48.373
Audi #2	1:43.673	1:23.147	1:45.814	1:28.370	1:48.597
Toyota #7	1:44.411	1:22.363	1:46.254	1:27.499	1:48.273
diff	+0.748	-0.784	+0.440	-0.140	-0.100

This is a comparison of the fastest race lap:

car	Silverstone	Interlagos	Bahrain	Fuji	Shanghai
Audi #1	1:44.520	1:23.740	1:47.274	1:28.391	1:48.924
Audi #2	1:44.599	1:23.070	1:47.140	1:28.967	1:49.664
Toyota #7	1:44.059	1:23.419	1:47.128	1:28.088	1:48.815
diff	-0.461	+0.349	-0.012	-0.303	-0.109

[Dario911]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

It's always nice to see your positive attitude; however, I'm not yet completely convinced the 991 RSR will be really competitive until the DFI engine comes next year. I really hope that I'm wrong. (The cool temperatures expected for Silverstone will help).

Also - Even if they are very competitive at Silverstone, I'm not sure that it would be wise to show a full hand, as the BoP police will be eager to strike before Le Mans.

I'm not so sure engine will be a real trouble fo Porsche, except for fuel consumption. Main problems for the old RSR were from the aero-package. The car was not fast in LM due to the inadeguate aerodynamics, and not for the engine. Power is quite the same of the opponents, with an improved aero, the car will have a lower fuel consumption, as well as better performance due to the better balancing. Porsche drivers have said to believe they'll be competitive since the first race. No one of them has spoken as if they were worried for the car performance.
Ok, we have to wait the race, but I believe numbers to win are just there!
Anyway, DFI will give another improvement to the car, of course.

[TF110]

What's your point in bringing up graphs? I said last year- 2012 is last year- Toyota was a second faster than Audi. Which they were at some points. Never said at Silverstone. Never said in race pace. Never specified. There were times Toyota was lapping a second faster than Audi, and times it was closer. Doesn't even matter because that isn't this year. Silverstone is not after LeMans either, the cars are different (at least Audi's is) and the track conditions will be different.

[Mike E]

@andy_b.

[Tim the Grey]

Originally Posted by Mike E

@andy_b.

Yeah, second that!
Top Job, Mr.B.

[Dario911]

Originally Posted by TF110

What's your point in bringing up graphs? I said last year- 2012 is last year- Toyota was a second faster than Audi. Which they were at some points. Never said at Silverstone. Never said in race pace. Never specified. There were times Toyota was lapping a second faster than Audi, and times it was closer. Doesn't even matter because that isn't this year. Silverstone is not after LeMans either, the cars are different (at least Audi's is) and the track conditions will be different.

Well, If you say Toyota was 1" faster than Audi in 2012, you have to specify when and were this happened. It's a nonsense to say "Which they were at some points. Never said at Silverstone. Never said in race pace. Never specified."
If you talk about lap times, you MUST specify the track and the moment the gap was 1".
It's not possible consider 1" as the average difference between Audi and Toyota in 2012, because the gap has never been 1" (or more so...)!

[zanfo zanfagni]

Skipping on watching numbers, i think that at least for silverstone, more or less will be a sort of 2012 deja vù. Knowing that toyota is using the old car, they could be able to win only if during the race they will gain a gap of 90seconds or more from audi's, keeping the lead also after a predictable splash and go during last minutes. The only way to gain a so huge gap is to have a considerably faster pace and hope for chronic audi tyres issues, practically a 2012 interlagos race situation. Not to forget that silverstone is an high average speed track with only 2 very slow points, the arena and vale, hybrid factor isn't so critical like in some other tracks. My turn to report some data, if in 2011 ILMC pole was 1.43.924 and in 2012 WEC 1.43.663 in a not full dry condition, 0.25% faster than previous season, can we expect at least 1.43.4 as a minimum competitive time for pole if will be a dry qualifying session?

[gwyllion]

In order to make up for the time of a late splash and dash, you don't need "considerably faster pace".

And that is the key, while there are those that look at the need to take a splash at the end of the race and see it as a disaster, we look at the time it takes to get a little fuel and convert that time into what would be require earlier in the race as a reduction in pace to make it unnecessary to take that stop.

The difference across the six hours is 0.2 seconds per lap – Anything we do to reduce pace to secure the need not to take a splash cannot cost us more than 0.2 seconds per lap as it would, over the full distance be a less efficient use of the time available!

source: http://www.dailysportscar.com/viewAr...D2E10C85AFF5A2

BTW the FIA has defined the same four hybrid activation zones as in 2012: http://www.fia.com/sites/default/fil...06-LMP1-HY.pdf

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by andy_b

Supported by Ten-Tenths, The Nismo WEC and ELMS Spotter Guide for Silverstone is now online to download. Two separate guides

Top man!

Thanks as always Andy, you're a legend!

[Beetle]

Originally Posted by Bentley03

Top man!

Thanks as always Andy, you're a legend!

Here, here! Fantastic... I was waiting patiently for this moment. You always know a season has really started when Andy puts his spotter guides up...

[jsTrecu]

Those spotter guides are a big help

[andy_b]

once photos start coming through, I'll update, probably on Thursday.

For example: Rebellion now has Red on Sidepods, Shell logo moved and scaled up etc

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Dario911

Well, If you say Toyota was 1" faster than Audi in 2012, you have to specify when and were this happened. It's a nonsense to say "Which they were at some points. Never said at Silverstone. Never said in race pace. Never specified."
If you talk about lap times, you MUST specify the track and the moment the gap was 1".
It's not possible consider 1" as the average difference between Audi and Toyota in 2012, because the gap has never been 1" (or more so...)!

No. A general statement doesn't need specifics. The only deal will be to see the difference in speeds this season. Don't forget the changes made to the diesels in power and tank size. Plus 15kg weight to Audi and Toyota. Rebellion also have their double endplates. They might be hanging on the tails of the top 4!

[airbusA346]

Originally Posted by andy_b

once photos start coming through, I'll update, probably on Thursday.

For example: Rebellion now has Red on Sidepods, Shell logo moved and scaled up etc

If they haven't changed the livery since the photo shoot. The #92 (Lieb, Lietz & Dumas) RSR will have have white mirrors, windscreen strip and wing main plane.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by TF110

No. A general statement doesn't need specifics. The only deal will be to see the difference in speeds this season.

Yet somehow by juggling with unfounded numbers, you tried to convince everybody that Toyota will be faster than Audi in Silverstone this year.

Lets analyse what you wrote in your original post:
"Toyota is running their 2012 cars. But they were over a second faster than Audi last season."
We have already identified that there is no evidence for this vague claim about "over a second faster".

"If Audi's 2013 car is a second faster than last year it may be close"
Next, you hypothesize that the 2013 R18 is one second faster than the 2012 R18. So following your argument, we would all think that the 2013 Audi is as fast as the 2012 Toyota...

"but Toyota hasn't sat still so I think they'll be faster just like last year."
Yet, the 2012 TS030 which has to run with +15 kg extra ballast, became faster during the winter break, even though it has no seen any track action since Shanghai.

Originally Posted by TF110

Don't forget the changes made to the diesels in power and tank size. Plus 15kg weight to Audi and Toyota.

The fuel tank size of Audi and Toyota remains the same. So Audi will still be able to do longer stints than Toyota.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Yet somehow by juggling with unfounded numbers, you tried to convince everybody that Toyota will be faster than Audi in Silverstone this year.

Did i touch a nerve? I said they were faster last year. You made the relation to Silverstone not I.

Lets analyse what you wrote in your original post:
"Toyota is running their 2012 cars. But they were over a second faster than Audi last season."
We have already identified that there is no evidence for this vague claim about "over a second faster".

So you deny in some races they were running a second faster? Your little graphs don't show anything but averages and fast laps/qualifying times. Your good with numbers so you can go to the fia's site and see for yourself when toyota were lapping a second quicker than Audi. Brazil comes to mind when they lapped both Audi's.

"If Audi's 2013 car is a second faster than last year it may be close"
Next, you hypothesize that the 2013 R18 is one second faster than the 2012 R18. So following your argument, we would all think that the 2013 Audi is as fast as the 2012 Toyota...

yup. Next?

"but Toyota hasn't sat still so I think they'll be faster just like last year."
Yet, the 2012 TS030 which has to run with +15 kg extra ballast, became faster during the winter break, even though it has no seen any track action since Shanghai.

I think the 2012 car will be faster than Audi. Clarification for statements I make need to be included because it seems like you don't understand what I'm relating to.

The fuel tank size of Audi and Toyota remains the same. So Audi will still be able to do longer stints than Toyota.

You don't know if they will change the tank capacity again this season, and they have given the Rebellion and Strakka cars more capacity. I was making the relation of tank size to the private teams in relation to the diesels.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

The fuel tank size of Audi and Toyota remains the same. So Audi will still be able to do longer stints than Toyota.

Also the fuel tank for the private teams was increased so there may be further adjustment.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by TF110

Did i touch a nerve? I said they were faster last year. You made the relation to Silverstone not I.

Look at the topic of this thread I am not denying that Toyota had the faster car last year, especially during Audi's second stint on the same tyres. I just don't agree with this "over a second faster" claim...

Originally Posted by TF110

So you deny in some races they were running a second faster? Your little graphs don't show anything but averages and fast laps/qualifying times. Your good with numbers so you can go to the fia's site and see for yourself when toyota were lapping a second quicker than Audi. Brazil comes to mind when they lapped both Audi's.

You are the person making unjustified claims and I have to come up with the proof for those claims

So your argument is that there were some laps where Toyota set a lap time that was one second faster than Audi. What is this supposed to tell us?
That is the same as e.g. looking at the fastest laps of the Malaysia race and concluding that McLaren currently is the best F1 car: Perez did 1:39.199 while Vettel only managed 1:40.446

Originally Posted by TF110

You don't know if they will change the tank capacity this season, and they have given the Rebellion and Strakka cars more capacity. I was making the relation of tank size to the private teams in relation to the diesels.

The discussion is about Audi vs Toyota and now you are including the privateers. In http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...-aero-updates/ Bart Hayden explained that they will not be able to challenge for the overall victory:

We're not in any way deluded enough to think that it's going to close the gap to the works cars. That's by far not going to happen. The gap there is massive. I think the ACO needs to wake up. I think they need to recognize that they can't give us any more. We're absolutely at breaking point now. They've got to scale the others back.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Look at the topic of this thread I am not denying that Toyota had the faster car last year, especially during Audi's second stint on the same tyres. I just don't agree with this "over a second faster" claim...
You are the person making unjustified claims and I have to come up with the proof for those claims

Youre wrong. Theres a difference between the front running car being a second or so faster and f1. We clearly saw Toyota wasn't mclaren who pit for fresh tires with less than 5 laps to go.

So your argument is that there were some laps where Toyota set a lap time that was one second faster than Audi. What is this supposed to tell us?
That is the same as e.g. looking at the fastest laps of the Malaysia race and concluding that McLaren currently is the best F1 car: Perez did 1:39.199 while Vettel only managed 1:40.446

Youre twisting my words. This isnt F1 like I stated. Toyota were lapping at a rate of a second sometimes more or sometimes less than the Audis. That is a fact. What I stated is fact. They were a second faster. On average? Continually? Always? No. Never said that. Please stop assuming that. The case can be made and there is evidence from more than one race to back it up.

The discussion is about Audi vs Toyota and now you are including the privateers. In http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...-aero-updates/ Bart Hayden explained that they will not be able to challenge for the overall victory:

No, the discussion is about Silverstone I never thought the private teams would challenge for the win. I did say they may hang around their tails. Pick up a unlikely podium like Strakka at Bahrain.

[Beetle]

C'mon guys, this is getting ridiculous.

Audi was never once a second slower than Toyota. Actually, yes, they were, when they were making their pit stops and out laps!

Let's look at the data again, shall we? At the 6 Hours of São Paulo, Lucas di Grassi set the fastest lap of the race with a 1:23.070. Lapierre came 2nd with a 1:23.419. Obviously not a second faster there... very simple. Here's the full PDF, by the way...

http://www.lemans.org/wpphpFichiers/...e-after-6h.pdf

At Bahrain, the fastest lap of the race was set by Lapierre: a 1:47.128. Just a hair behind him was the fastest Audi, piloted by Tom Kristensen, a 1:47.140. Not even a tenth of a second faster there.

http://www.lemans.org/wpphpFichiers/...e-after-6h.pdf

At Fuji: Nakajima (1:28.088) vs. Lotterer (1:28.391).

http://www.lemans.org/wpphpFichiers/...e-after-6h.pdf

At Shanghai: Lapierre (1:48.815) vs. Lotterer (1:28.924).

http://www.lemans.org/wpphpFichiers/...e-after-6h.pdf

Finally, Silverstone: Lapierre was fastest with a 1:44.059, then Nakajima, then Lotterer, the first of the Audis, with a 1:44.520. The Toyotas obviously had a bit of an edge last year, but we don't know, it's been months since we saw the two face off against each other so how can we possibly make educated guesses about such things.

http://www.lemans.org/wpphpFichiers/...e-after-6h.pdf

Obviously, there was never a case of Audi being 1 second slower by the end of each race which both Toyota and Audi raced in. You can debate it till you're blue in the face but I say case closed.

[TF110]

Youre using fastest laps which isnt an indication of how the races played out. Theres no reason for argument. This is a whole new year so we can compare times after Silverstone and Spa to see how the new and old cars stack up.

[goat69]

Just wanted to say looking forward to the weekend of motorsport that i will be watching here in oz on tv and online. v8 supercars, f1 and to top it off WEC. Went to this event a couple of years ago with the help of a top bloke, Tim (Tim the grey) and his youngest son Ben. So good to be at silverstone watching such varied and quality racing. And was surprised that it didn't rain.

[Steptoe]

Does anyone know if there is a live stream that will work in OZ for Silverstone ?

[Dario911]

Originally Posted by TF110

No. A general statement doesn't need specifics. The only deal will be to see the difference in speeds this season. Don't forget the changes made to the diesels in power and tank size. Plus 15kg weight to Audi and Toyota. Rebellion also have their double endplates. They might be hanging on the tails of the top 4!

No. If you talk about numbers, you have to explain where did you find those numbers.
If you talk for personal convinction, is just another story.
You've talked about 1" of difference between Audi and Toyota, but this is a your personal opinion, because nothing shows it's right what you're saying. Toyota has never proven to be 1" faster than R18, so I'm waiting to know where you've heard this.
I think we are talking about real facts, isn't it?

[goat69]

does the dailymotion site not work. Thought i remember watching it last year