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29 Mar 2019, 00:14 (Ref:3894012) | #51 | ||
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So it’s doable, but painful. Richard |
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1 Apr 2019, 18:58 (Ref:3894728) | #52 | |
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So the RBR Honda situation is interesting. They certainly appear to be further back from Ferrari and Mercedes than previously. They don't look like they could steal a cheeky win like they previously could. So from that you could say they're worse off.
But looking at the current state of the Renault powered teams, specifically the works Renault team, it's hard to argue they didn't make the right choice. McLaren appear to have made a significant step forward, so it will be interesting to see what happens with the RBR -> McLaren gap. RBR appear to be in a position where they've taken a step back, but the other option looks to be two steps back. |
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2 Apr 2019, 13:16 (Ref:3894855) | #53 | |
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Well it seems Max was blaming the chassis, which makes a nice change!
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2 Apr 2019, 13:45 (Ref:3894868) | #54 | |
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I think if we had not had the significant chassis changes this year it might make it easier to measure relative progress of Honda vs. the other power unit manufactures. As it stands now, who did a good job (and who didn't) with the new regulations is clouding things a bit. Plus, everyone (including Mercedes and Ferrari) are not static with respect to their power unit improvements. Harder to compare 2018 vs. 2019.
Richard |
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1 May 2019, 14:34 (Ref:3901003) | #55 | |
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The thread has somewhat gone cold. I would say mostly due to a lack of real news, but there has been some. The topic came up in the Future Rules thread as well. In an effort to keep topics in the right threads. Here is some quick thoughts...
Red Bull Racing has said that they are not exactly happy with the 2019 car, but they say they are making improvements. It seems there are three teams at the front with Red Bull Racing at the tail end of that top three. Max continues to lead the team. I wonder what things might have looked like if Ricciardo had stayed with the team. Is Max showing the true potential of the RBR package or is he so good that he is driving beyond what can be expected from RBR? Hard to say. Enough about RBR. What about Honda? So I think a good place to read on the technical stuff is the forum at https://www.f1technical.net Their moderators can be over enthusiastic at times as they often delete posts as they try to keep things on topic within a given thread and to cut down on the noise level. So it's not particularly a newbie friendly place, but lots of good info. I am stealing a meme I found there that I think is funny and accurate. Basically it is commentary on the string of "20 more horsepower" upgrades... Clearly the joke is that Honda should be smoking the field at this point with their excessive power levels. I think Honda was guilty of this early on. I think the root was the Canadian GP last year? Since then I think Honda has been a bit more reserved with their own comments as to improvements, but that hasn't stopped RBR/TR (really Helmet Marko who is always good for memorable and idiotic quotes) from providing very specific numbers for upgrades. I think the real story has been incremental improvements, but spread out all over the place. Be it top end power, qualifying mode improvements, non-ICE improvements, drivability etc. Stealing another image from that forum... To be honest, I haven't delved too deeply into the info behind this image, but it is supposed to show the respective qualifying pace based upon Baku. There can be some arguments as to who got a tow from who, but broadly speaking it shows the relatively tight group up front. But... a half second gap from the leader is a lot in F1. But not as bad as the midfield! Someone else was trying to do analysis of length of time spend on the long Baku straights in qualifying between Honda and Ferrari. With the implication being this is a power track and it should show some type of relative power unit performance (assuming similar car setup and level of aero drag which is always a problem in these types of comparisons). In the end, it shows that Honda is loosing time to Ferrari, but not too far back. If you believe that persons analysis... he says it is looking better than the 2018 delta at the same track. So that could be showing that the 2019 Honda is better than the 2018 Renault. Whatever that means. This also assumes Ferrari remained static. As to reliability issues. Analysis of Kvyat's engine from Chinese GP exposed a previously unknown defect. This triggered Honda to move forward an expected spec to Baku. Apparently the defective part was already redesigned in the Spec 2 package. So moving it up slightly was the easy solution. So everyone got the new spec. But overall the reliability seems to be on the upswing compared to years before. Other reports say that Honda plans three more evolutions of the power unit during the season. It is said that Honda is planning three more stages/expansion levels during 2019. The next around Montreal or Paul Ricard, another at Spa and the timing of the last is depending on the situation at the end of the year. Richard |
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1 May 2019, 15:41 (Ref:3901026) | #56 | |
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Well there's not much to report on, because Honda have gone so well. It has helped RBR. Obviously the whole package works so far
We'll see how the rest of the season goes. So many technical details in F1 something could change It's a good start, but all could change in an instant |
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1 May 2019, 17:58 (Ref:3901051) | #57 | |
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Again, between passing Perez and Gasly's driveshaft failure Verstappen took out almost 10s from Bottas, Hamilton and Vettel:
http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?p...tteri%20Bottas If that doesn't tell something about the current RB package competitiveness than I don't know what will. I reckon they will need or are going to improve more than the competition on the following: 1 Tyre understanding/management, closing the gap to Mercedes on difficult tyre tracks. 2 Further improvements in aero effectiveness/consistency. 3 Further engine performance improvements. Point 2 has already improved a lot from Bahrain testing after the first few races. I expect them to make good gains again in Barcelona. Peak drivetrain output for Q3 and critical race stages will still be a challenge for the time being I reckon. However if they can compensate sufficiently in the above area's I see them regular winning races in the short term. |
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1 May 2019, 20:54 (Ref:3901079) | #58 | ||
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Statistics don't prove anything.
At this point in time (4 races done) they have less wins than last year, and less podiums than in 2017. But they do have more points than in either year. Is that progress, or is that worse than before? Or shall we call that status quo? To me - at this moment - Honda instead of Renault is just a sidestep. They were 3rd, they're still 3rd. At some races last year they were the 2nd or even the strongest force, chances are that they will be just at certain races again this year. But overall: still 3rd. |
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1 May 2019, 21:27 (Ref:3901086) | #59 | ||
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I think a true statistician would agree with you. Statistics is not about "proving" anything, but to help build confidence in a particular proposition. So they may say something is more likely than not, vs "X = Y".
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What is my point? Numbers can be twisted to tell any story you want. In the end it is the driver and constructor points that matter and those only matter at the end of the season. And even those only matter to define... WDC and WCC. Both of which are driven by the large factors of... Team, Chassis, Power Unit and Driver. Even the stuff I quote above (which are favorable to RBR 2019 vs. 2018) really say nothing about Honda. To be honest, while some comparisons can be made, it's pretty early to make many conclusions. But we are seeing STRONG directions of where things are likely to go. My personal opinion is that Mercedes has their act together in a massive way. Ferrari has improved and RBR has on average stayed in the same place. RBR seems better in some areas (maybe slightly better power unit, but the jury is still out), worse in others (2019 car maybe not as good as 2018, only one proven driver with multiple race wins vs. two from last year). Sorry if I appear to be "pumping up" Honda. That is not my goal. I generally am pretty critical of Honda. But I try to be critical of specific quantifiable things and less about emotional "they haven't elevated someone to a championship yet, so they suck and should quit" type of stuff. Regardless, I am "defending" Honda more than I should. So I am going to try to stop or cut back on that. Richard |
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2 May 2019, 01:27 (Ref:3901107) | #60 | ||
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There is obviously a fundamental problem with the regen. on the Honda.
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2 May 2019, 09:40 (Ref:3901162) | #61 | |
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2 May 2019, 10:46 (Ref:3901189) | #62 | |
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I wonder if those that made the mistakes have learned from it
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2 May 2019, 11:32 (Ref:3901217) | #63 | |||
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Indeed. Sorry if I hadn't made that clear.
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2 May 2019, 14:18 (Ref:3901261) | #64 | ||
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As you can tell... I was a bit wound up yesterday. Sorry for any aggressive tone in my earlier reply. Cheers. Richard |
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2 May 2019, 18:01 (Ref:3901331) | #65 | |
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We all have our different views. But no harm done
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6 May 2019, 09:02 (Ref:3902168) | #66 | ||
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6 May 2019, 19:09 (Ref:3902330) | #67 | ||
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the closest Renault powered car was a minute behind the Honda in Baku?
both Renault powered teams are miles back of the RB-Honda (although Norris looks a legit difference maker) and so far in the early season (imo) it looks like this gap will grow over the remainder of the season and potentially grow more next season as the RB/Honda relationship develops. no doubt they have a job to do to get to where the Merc and Ferrari works team engines are, but if i was to put money on who will catch up first i will pick Honda over Renault. in three and a bit years, Renault's best finish is 5th (i think). which is even more ridiculous when one factors in that they were one of the advocate for this type of engine, been there developing since its adoption, and thus were not constrained in its development in the same way Honda were. just my opinion, but really this thread has been answered and we should move our focus on a 'Renault in F1' thread with odds being given on how much longer Renault can they justify their F1 program! |
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8 May 2019, 07:18 (Ref:3902559) | #68 | |
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IIRC Renault gave Bernie an undertaking on their period of involvement in return for payments. Have I got that right or is my memory faulty.
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9 May 2019, 10:48 (Ref:3902772) | #69 | |
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9 May 2019, 14:45 (Ref:3902797) | #70 | ||
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fair point...i guess the follow up to that however would be, what would be an accurate indicator of performance difference be?
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9 May 2019, 16:41 (Ref:3902811) | #71 | ||
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The easiest thing to say is that whoever is leading the championship... likely has the best power unit. If you are dominating the championship, then there is less doubt as to if you have the best power unit or not. So this puts Mercedes at the top (few would argue otherwise). Anecdotally we say Ferrari is next and then we can argue the order of Honda and Renault after the first two. If pressed to pick a single "easy to access" metric... I would lean toward top speed on the longest straight. But even that is governed by factors beyond that of the power unit. That includes individual car aero efficiency, aero setup (low or high downforce setup), did the driver get a tow, etc. And then that only speak to top end power which is just one attribute of the power unit. Driveability, qualifying mode performance, harvesting efficiency, etc. are also very important. Given that both the best and worst team right now use the same powerunit, that should illustrate the difficulty of extracting understanding based upon basic car performance. Sadly... I personally think that real understanding of things like this is generally outside of the realm of the vast majority of fans. Not that they can't understand, but that the topic is complex and generally they don't have the technical skills or time to extract and analyse the information themselves. For most of us, the primary method is to rely upon someone else to do that analysis for us and provide some type of aggregated and (hopefully) informed opinion. Typically that source is the mainstream motorsports media. My opinion is that the quality of their analysis can range from poor to excellent. With the best being science/data based analysis. But sadly, deep analysis is not very common. Probably given the amount of work that is required. And when you need to crank out stories on a daily/hourly basis they may not have the time to do it on a regular basis. In my opinion, what we get most of the time is "gut based" pontification. Sometimes that is informed (backed by data), sometimes not. I personally think that some of the best analysis that is happening today is done by dedicated and talented fans. They don't operate on deadlines and have the time to go as deep as they dare. I saw some fan based data analysis recent that was impressive. They were recording the output of the F1 app's video of individual car qualifying (such as best lap). Then using open source OCR libraries to extract frame by frame data for RPM, Speed, Throttle, Brake, Gear selection, etc. Taking this information, you can integrate the velocity to generate an approximation for distance to generate track position. You now have decently good car based telemetry to do comparison between cars, drivers and teams. In the end... it's just data. So someone has to extract some type of conclusions from it. And the fans can be hit or miss on their conclusions just like anyone. Example of fan's telemetry analysis... https://unendinginsight.wordpress.com/ Example telemetry graph from above site... Showing how telemetry extraction is done (don't think it's the same guy as the link above)... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUgvhnQawbw Richard Last edited by Richard C; 9 May 2019 at 16:58. Reason: fix typos/spelling |
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10 May 2019, 00:29 (Ref:3902882) | #72 | ||
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A couple of things stick out. MV has a bad turn 8 (?); much lower apex speed and off the throttle more. Looks like a little mistake.
Also there are three interesting points where VB holds on to a gear longer, but it looks like MV short shifts (due to to traction issues?). |
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10 May 2019, 03:01 (Ref:3902892) | #73 | ||
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https://www.pitpass.com/64560/Marko-...laming-Renault
Just maybe the Honda isn't as good as Red Bull would like. The constant whining from both Horner and Marko about Renault even now, is starting to look like smoke screen stuff. |
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10 May 2019, 07:05 (Ref:3902906) | #74 | |
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Why when someone passes a comment to a question that a fan does not agree with they are classed as whining? Maybe it is the fan that is whining because it is something he does not want to hear or agree with.
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10 May 2019, 11:53 (Ref:3902975) | #75 | ||
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With Renault, RBR were a customer paying over $90million a year for under performing engines, so you can understand why RBR were unimpressed with Renault's efforts. Renault were also responsible for the switch to these expensive PUs, so again you can understand RBRs frustration. RBR are well rid of Renault in my opinion. |
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