[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[DistortedSmile]

ACO/IMSA prototype convergence to be announced tommorow, according to Dagys.


https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...-announcement/

[Akrapovic]

If we're converging, then can we not just use DPi 2.0? So we have prototypes, rather than this weird pretend road car stuff? Let people use an LMP2 chassis, or build their own.

I was against convergence when one class was BoP and the other was EoT. But if we're committing to BoP then DPi is already doing that well.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

If we're converging, then can we not just use DPi 2.0? So we have prototypes, rather than this weird pretend road car stuff? Let people use an LMP2 chassis, or build their own.

I was against convergence when one class was BoP and the other was EoT. But if we're committing to BoP then DPi is already doing that well.

And it appears from MP the convergence will rely on BOP to adjust DPi 2.0 with Hypercar. Potentially class to be called LMDh, wasn't sure it's different rules and then class BOP. But think that's already in place for track specials vs street car, yes using the VERY general terms there on purpose

[DistortedSmile]

I can't even begin to imagine the nightmare that BoPing three different rulesets is going to be.

https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...car-platforms/
Also pretty sure this is new information, Dagys mentions the cars are homologated until 2026. Chiana is probably already on a plane to Daytona with murderous intentions

[Mike E]

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2020/0...nvergence.html

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by DistortedSmile

Chiana is probably already on a plane to Daytona with murderous intentions

Nah I just need to finally accept that I have to part ways with ACO and rest of modern sportscar racing as it's not the sport I fell in love with. It's difficult but at least there is Masters Endurance Legends (maybe Peter Auto too) with proper cars to keep me company on the final ride to the sunset

edit: Thunderhill 25 Hours was great fun to watch too last time out, perhaps if the old cars start gearing up there in bigger capacity it could become a sanctuary for real endurance racing too

[Akrapovic]

LMDh looks far more interesting than Hypercar.

It's not a bad solution, but I fear the balance of two classes from different bodies will lead to messy politics.

I'd personally merge them. I'd take LMDh and say you can either use an LMP2 chassis, or build/buy your own chassis. You can take an off-the-shelf hybrid, or make your own. Like LMDh on steroids.

I do think LMDh is a far better name than DPi. DPi was a silly name. They were Le Mans Prototypes in America. Not Daytona Prototypes running internationally. Le Mans Daytona hybrid is kinda cool. It pays homage to the base and makes mention of the American side of it. That, or Le Mans America hybrid would be cool. So branding wise, it's a good step.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I do think LMDh is a far better name than DPi. DPi was a silly name. They were Le Mans Prototypes in America. Not Daytona Prototypes running internationally. Le Mans Daytona hybrid is kinda cool. It pays homage to the base and makes mention of the American side of it. That, or Le Mans America hybrid would be cool. So branding wise, it's a good step.

Hey now, they were international, Mosport is Canada and every anti (insert hated party here) crackhead told us it's a different country. OK, you can see the US from there but it's still international. Just like the World Series was, twice.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Hey now, they were international, Mosport is Canada and every anti (insert hated party here) crackhead told us it's a different country. OK, you can see the US from there but it's still international. Just like the World Series was, twice.

Bridgestone presents the Champ Car World Series powered by Ford.

Thinking of it - if everyone is using the hybrid system, then just drop the h. LMD sounds kinda cool. Hypercar should be LMGTP. Those are nice class names.

[MagVanisher]

Wow, the convergence is happening huh? Great job for both parties, although having the LMDh moniker is kinda silly to me. Just call it GT-P or something better.

Of course, who will commit on the top-class now that ACO, FIA, and IMSA combined both the Hypercar with Daytona Prototype International regulations?

[canaglia]

LMDh seems a name of a synthetic drug... anyway if before was already a mess to balance next hybrid semi-AWD toyota GRSS with a road derivated hypercar like valkyrie, don't know what to expect now that they added hybrd lmp2+ to the equation....
BTW how many new manufacturers are seriously interested to dpi gen2?
ford, mclaren etc... were just rumors at the end, ATM in best scenario we just have to hope mazda, GM and acura/honda will decide to remain, and once said that; toyota is the only ACO influent manufacturer, hypercar rules clearly make toyota in an advantageous position... so, to me will be unlikely to see many american LMDh teams leave for france to be badly beaten by toyotas

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by canaglia

hypercar rules clearly make toyota in an advantageous position... so, to me will be unlikely to see many american LMDh teams leave for france to be badly beaten by toyotas

I think in the event the rules come to pass with a big push for Toyota then the only time you'll see IMSA cars would be LM and MAYBE Mazda. Caddy wouldn't get much, Acura/HPD maybe just to get at Toyota.

Ford is probably out without a BIG and costly hybrid unit.
McLaren is sorry but like RWR I'll trust it when I see it on the track. Sadly cause I think they could do it well
Sadly I think many others I've mentioned before in the rumors pile are just that. Maybe we see a VAG effort but who gets it?

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Nah I just need to finally accept that I have to part ways with ACO and rest of modern sportscar racing as it's not the sport I fell in love with. It's difficult but at least there is Masters Endurance Legends (maybe Peter Auto too) with proper cars to keep me company on the final ride to the sunset

edit: Thunderhill 25 Hours was great fun to watch too last time out, perhaps if the old cars start gearing up there in bigger capacity it could become a sanctuary for real endurance racing too

There's still one professional endurance racing championship with no BoP, minimal equivalency rules, open tire competition, large fields, competitive racing, manufacturer involvement, and major factory teams using their most advanced technology in its premiere race.

Le Mans starts too.


It's very hard to say how LMH and LMDh (wow that won't be confusing at all) balance will work without any clue what the weight and power numbers will be for the latter. If they're reasonably close it should balance well as LMH was ever going to anyways.

[hondafan37]

Lexus in Support of DPi/Hypercar Convergence; Le Mans Prospects.
Toyota y Lexus podrÃ*an coexistir en primera clase en Le Mans en "Respectful Manner".

https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...-game-changer/

[TF110]

This looks good on paper, but it presents problems that are already showing up. Oreca says it's not going in on hypercar but instead dpi2.0 or LMDh(?) whatever it's going to be called. It's 'cheaper' because the price of the chassis is cheaper since they're going to be based on lmp2's which will be priced to a market that wants teams to buy their cars. So a p2 chassis itself won't be that much since they're made in bulk. Meanwhile a hypercar will because it's bespoke. Looks like Toyota will be the only car that's purpose-built and bespoke. Aston Martin will be based on a road car as will the Glickenhaus (or vice versa for the latter). Peugeot might just use a p2 chassis now thanks to the timing of this joining.

[Akrapovic]

ORECA have done the smart thing. LMDh will be eligable for WEC, but Hypercar is currently not eligable for IMSA. LMDh is also cheaper. So why not just build LMDh? What advantage does Hypercar bring? LMDh will also allow you to sell to customers, as it's an LMP2 base they'll be building anyway.

This deal will kill Hypercar. There is no advantage to having it. Toyota could scrap the Hypercar, go down the LMDh route, and then race at Le Mans and Daytona.

If the ACO want more bespoke solutions then the answer is to take LMDh and scale up. Allow bespoke or LMP2 chassis as a base. Allow stock or bespoke hybrid systems. That will achieve what the ACO wants, whilst having a sustainable base - and allow compatibility between the series.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

I think in the event the rules come to pass with a big push for Toyota then the only time you'll see IMSA cars would be LM and MAYBE Mazda. Caddy wouldn't get much, Acura/HPD maybe just to get at Toyota.

Ford is probably out without a BIG and costly hybrid unit.
McLaren is sorry but like RWR I'll trust it when I see it on the track. Sadly cause I think they could do it well
Sadly I think many others I've mentioned before in the rumors pile are just that. Maybe we see a VAG effort but who gets it?

considering mazda and joest will take different paths in next months, I think that mazda dpi program is the one least stable for the future.
To me will be much more likely to see toyotas at daytona than dpi american teams at le mans.

VAG is pushing hard to electric cars, they are not interested about hybrid stuff.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by canaglia

considering mazda and joest will take different paths in next months, I think that mazda dpi program is the one least stable for the future.
To me will be much more likely to see toyotas at daytona than dpi american teams at le mans.

VAG is pushing hard to electric cars, they are not interested about hybrid stuff.

Mazda isn't going anywhere, Joest has been sidelined for over a year already anyway. Multimatic is running the show and Mazda NA is behind racing. The Joest contract doesn't change anything.

VAG represents Lamborghini (multiple cars without hybrid or electric), Bentley and Bugatti. Don't see any electrics on the horizon there. It feels like they're setting up 2 paths for future development of auto lines. And selling racing, especially endurance, is selling to wealthy second or third car markets.

Lexus throws a wrench in the Toyota hypercar IMSA project. IF Lexus US can find the money to run a DPi(LMPh) program would both be allowed to run with one at a higher cost. Although, IF we hold Toyota's talk about welcoming competition then we should believe they would allow both. But would Lexus be ok with it, or can Toyota wield the bigger stick and knock them in the head?

[Akrapovic]

Whilst VAG factory efforts can be said to be focused on full electric, it's hard to argue that for the future. Porsche vs Audi is not sustainable in FE. Arguably the FE projects are getting out of hand already. You can't have teams building £90m testing grounds and expect to keep projects going.

Audi, Lambo, Porsche and Bentley all have petrol race cars about. Most are customer, but there are a lot of works backed teams running those too.

With the majority of diesel-gate blown over, it's not unreasonable to suggest they start looking at other motorsports again. They technically already are. It just needs to be cost effective to run an LMDh and that's it done.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

There's still one professional endurance racing championship with no BoP, minimal equivalency rules, open tire competition, large fields, competitive racing, manufacturer involvement, and major factory teams using their most advanced technology in its premiere race.

Le Mans starts too.

Yes I did follow Bol d'Or and Motorcycles Le Mans 24h a bit, like 7-8 years ago, but never really paid attention to it since as my interest was always in cars rather than bikes. But perhaps I should give it another go. What you are describing sounds like a true dream of yesteryear, unlike the garbage offered here

Also I really wish MEL would organize like a 1000km race somewhere too. Obviously the thing with those old cars is that they are driven by rich and slow amateur drivers, and in races other than mere sprints you would get even more easing off to save equipment. You can't recognize the true potential of the original package. But even so they are still proper cars without manipulation, and the memories those cars hold do stick in your heart

[Mike E]

Ah man, just realised that basing LMDh on LMP2 chassis means keeping those damn fins.

[helgi]

So, it turns out that all that ACO bravery was hollow. Nobody except Toyota, who are still keen engineers in racing, and Peugeot, who were granted to get their obligatory cups, had any interest in those SuperDrupperSegaMegaCars. ACO had to save the situation by adding someone to the highest class - and they just destroyed it completely. Who is going to build that Нурегсаг now? It's brainless for modern day managers. And real constructors, petrolheads are eliminated by a superb policy of "frozen" tech regs and idiotic restrictions in number of manufacturers. So, now they will have 4 chassis for the whole prototype racing. Is this the smallest amount in the history of racing? I always thought that variety of choices symbolises true life and such narrow ways are meant to be only inside some specific political groups. But if the biggest part of fans are quite happy about that, then it's I who do not understand the real situation and the beauty of the moment. Over and out.

[carbsmith]

Apparently LMH is not yet decided to be eligible for IMSA which makes this a bit of a joke.

Originally Posted by Chiana

Yes I did follow Bol d'Or and Motorcycles Le Mans 24h a bit, like 7-8 years ago, but never really paid attention to it since as my interest was always in cars rather than bikes. But perhaps I should give it another go. What you are describing sounds like a true dream of yesteryear, unlike the garbage offered here

Suzuka is the one to watch, that's where the big guns and banned MotoGP tech comes out.

[Deleted]

2020 Category 1: LMP1-H, LMP1-NH (Not performance balanced)
2021 Category 1: Hypercar-Non-Hypercar with hybrid, Hypercar-Non-Hypercar without hybrid , Hypercar-Hypercar with hybrid, Hypercar-Hypercar without hybrid, slowened LMP1-NH (All performance balanced)
2022-24 Category 1: Hypercar-Non-Hypercar with hybrid, Hypercar-Non-Hypercar without hybrid , Hypercar-Hypercar with hybrid, Hypercar-Hypercar without hybrid, DPi2-LMP2 (All performance balanced)
2025-26 Category 1: Hypercar-Non-Hypercar with hybrid, Hypercar-Non-Hypercar without hybrid , Hypercar-Hypercar with hybrid, Hypercar-Hypercar without hybrid, DPi2-LMP2, Zero Emission (All performance balanced) *** Zero Emission likely with 10 different sub sections as well

Hughes de Chaunac will also lobby for a chance to have stock Oreca 07s with different mirrors to be classified as LMDh in order to get rebranded sticker manufacturers into the lead class without having to do anything. ACO will agree to this and later, once all that is left is cheap DPis, it will be their biggest draw

Originally Posted by carbsmith

Suzuka is the one to watch, that's where the big guns and banned MotoGP tech comes out.

Interesting dynamic

[TF110]

Apparently Toyota doesn't see an issue with Lexus and Toyota racing together and against each other. But this is my issue, Toyota spends 8-figures to make their lmp-hypercar while Lexus maybe uses an Oreca with their upcoming V8TT from the LC F or something and a spec hybrid. Costs less than half, beats Toyota at Le Mans. What happens to Toyota's lmp-hypercar that they just spend 20million+ on?

Aston Martin just put out a statement saying they're looking at the upcoming rules. So will they just say lets take the multimatic chassis that Mazda is/will be using' and put their Valkyrie look-alike body kit on it? I think Toyota is a different case because they have everything nearly done so the investment is already made and they like to do their own thing since TMG is nearly everything in-house. But it is an expenditure and the bosses might just say 'Lexus is doing just fine with Oreca'! I don't know if I'm alone in this but that's not something I want to see. I want some innovation as much as it's limited in hypercar, at least there's something left that's not spec, unlike the LMDh.