Surfers Paradise a big disapointment

[Valve Bounce]

I wanted to watch the race carefully to see how good Montoya is before he goes to F1. I went to the kitchen for a coffee as they were on what I thought to be the formation lap, and I ran back just missing the first 12 minutes, only to find it was all over bar the shouting. Montoya out, de Ferran out and the Scotsman out. Merde!!! I perservered and watched the rest of the race, only to find leading contenders outed by a continuous carnage unimaginable in F1, and a fire in poor Andretti's car. What I want to ask you guys what you think of this persistant racing under a yellow. I mean a guy drives beautifully to establish a lead, only to find that the yellow comes out and they all refuel and bunch up behind him. OK, they cannot refuel in F1, but the lead is lost. Now this can completely bugger up a race. For example, if TGF had his car on a light fuel load with a two stop strategy, and establishes a big enough lead to still stay ahead after the first stop, only for the yellow to come out just before he is due to pit, and the yellow lasts for 8 laps, what the heck is goiung to happen? The guy cannot come in, runs out of fuel, or at least loses his big lead so that when he comes in, he is overtaken by most of the field who are on a one lap strategy, and he then has to come in once again, same as everyone else so he loses out on the advantage he has built up, and probably loses the race. There must be a more equitable way to protect his lead when the yellow comes out - viz. credit him with the gap at the last time he crossed the finish line, and same for everyone else. What do you guys think? What are the rules if a car is about to pit for fuel a lap before the yellow comes out.

[Bud 1]

My view on the CART yellow scenario is that it adds to the unpredictability and hence excitment of the race, yes some times the leader will lose out but generally over the season it evens out. It also means a guy starting lower down the field can find himself at the front due to good pit calls, so strategy becomes even more important than F1.
In F1 they usually follow each other around anyway regardless of yellow flags, with either TGF or Hakinnen winning !

[Valve Bounce]

Hey there Bud!! Welcome to our friendly forum. Hope you stay and enjoy our discussions. All arguments are listened to and while I may not agree with those posted by othrs, there is a tendency to respect others views, UNLESS THEY ARE STUPID!!!!!!
No, seriously, we are very friendly here, so please stay and enjoy!! I am glad that you have already figured out the TGF thing.

[Red]

Well, VB, you make the same mistake I do : drives beautifully to establish a lead. You know, this is wrong! Hakkinen and Schumacher almost lapping Irvine at Suzuka last year, that was not a magnificent drive. That's boring! Schumacher winning at Hungaroring on a three-stopper strategy calls for a refuelling ban, it was not amazing. (how exactly will be possible a drive like Ricardo's at Monza if half of the race they will save tyres and fuel and the other half they will save fuel and tyres?)

In the particular case you mentioned:

For example, if Schumacher had his car on a light fuel load with a two stop strategy, and establishes a big enough lead to still stay ahead after the first stop, only for the yellow to come out just before he is due to pit, and the yellow lasts for 8 laps, what the heck is goiung to happen?

He will lose a clear win. Probably he will miss the podium as well and if this happens in the last laps most probably he will not even score a point. But VB, he will not run out of fuel, they are allowed to pit for tyres and fuel as well, like a regular pit-stop. The only restriction is that they are allowed to reenter on track only if the lights at the pit-lane exit are green (and they are always green, except when the SC and the pack of cars following it passes the pit-lane)

Indeed, unfair. However I don't think there is any other viable alternative.

[tazzoid]

This is exactly what happened at Monza when Bunsen dived into the armco; in Hockenheim when DC lost umpteen places because of pitstop strategies favouring Mika. It's a part of F1: anything can happen, and that is why the Ferrari team often comes out better: Ross Brawn is a tactical genius. It's all about circumstance, and the teams and drivers just have to make the best of what is thrown at them. Of course, they could try and employ some extremely underhand tactics (TGF? No, NEVER...) but that's why the strategies are so important. Fact of life. No hard feelings.

[Liz]

I hate the fuel conservation thing in CART - I think they should be allowed to use all the fuel they want to and pit 50 times a race if they feel like it. I don't go there to see who can go the slowest, although that is often what you end up seeing in a CART race!

[neutral]

For once, I agree 100% with Liz's post.

[Bud 1]

I`m sorry folks, I just don`t agree with the fuel conservation theme, yes sure at some races people try to win with different strategies, but there are always others on a different fuel load going flat out, eg. de Ferran at Portland. I also do not think it happens that often, people like Montoya, Andretti, and Tracy do not seem to win races by using consevative strategies. Further to the yellow flag theme, as a Brit bought up on a diet of F1 (from when it was racing), I can honestly say I do not object to yellow periods, even if a guy has a 20 second lead, yes I feel sorry for them, but after all is it not better to watch racing than a procession.


Toodle Pip

[Nuvolari]

While you may find the yellow flags annoying, even offensive, it's hard to disagree that there's more dicing in five laps of a CART race than an entire GP.

[Airhead]

Umm, there seem to be two starins to this subject. The yellow flag debate as it applies to CART and the popularity/entertainment value of CART versus F1.
With the first issue I watched the Surfers race from the back of the circuit and the yellow flags were a hinderance to what was in the flesh an enthralling race. Part of my enjoyment was seeing Paul Tracey "pull the pin" as only he can when the moon and sun are in alignment. Brilliant 9 seconds up to Micheal after 7 or so laps. Then things were more exciting watching him position his car to overtake when he went to the back of the field due to 'electrical problems'. Yellow after yellow and the first lap after another restart sees him taken out from behind.

For the F1 versus CART debate, F1 have the money, the best drivers and more BS than the American series (this is saying something), F1 also has less excitement, less overtaking and the commentators (in Australia, one of whom is a past F1 champion) comment on how boring the race was. When CART/INDYCARS first started being televised in Australia I couldn't see what the fuss was about. I am now a convert, yellow bloody flags and all.

[angst]

I agre with AMoffat on this one. CART has much more exciting racing. If only the FIA would realise that having cars that can be driven(ie different styles of driving can all be effective) and raced (ie they can get close enough and have enough of a braking area to overtake)would improve the whole package. I know that with the differentials in engine/chassis combinations the gap would still be greater than in CART, a similar set of technical regs, regarding the chassis/bodywork/brakes/gearbox/gizmos would do wonders for F1.

[R]

angst, I agree completely. Not much to add, really. I hope CART becomes more popular, and draws more interest away from F1 (read: money), that way F1 will have to change. As long as the cash keeps flowing in, Bernie & Co. are happy with things the way they are.

[Valve Bounce]

A big welcome to AMoffat. Since you are not a Canuck, I take it you are a Ford fan. Welcome to our friendly, insult and abuse free forum, and please stay and give us many of your opinions. Do you like Alabama??
As for CART, I have to agree with R&Angst, and I am swayed by AMoffat's view on yellows. It's just that when this guy took Tracy out, that annoyed the heck out of me, and I just did not want to watch those stupid yellows with cars going slowly round and round again. I want to see racing!!

[Airhead]

Thanks for the welcome Valve Bounce, this expands my group of correspondees (in addition to a group of friends who correspnd via email) and I don;t have the hassles of live chat rooms. You have guessed right, I am a Ford fan of late thirties vintage as can be seen from the nick name.

It was a shame Paul Tracey was taken out, I agree. Of interest was when after driving home from the track I watched a sports show that evening where the commentator satated Tracey had taken himself out through some aggressive driving. Must have been at the wrong race myself.

[White Van Man]

There is one main difference between F1 and CART; in F1 the 'show' is before the race, in CART it IS the race.

Both have their good points, but i'd take CART any day of the week, thanks! At least, that is, until F1 gets itself out of this depression and goes racing again...

[Airhead]

At the bottom of it there are a lot of driver and car combinations that can win a CART race, partly due to the yellow flag situation discussed above. In F1 when did anybody win who was not in a scarlet or silver car?

[Dhru]

I think it was Hienz Herald Frentzen for Jordan in Monza last year. It seems like a lifetime ago!
Dhru.

[R]

No, actually it was Johnny Herbert in a Stewart at the Nürburgring last year (the race after Monza) who was the last non-McLaren/Ferraridriver who won an F1 race.