[Team] Williams: Do they have a spare tub?

[pirenzo]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Have any manufacturers come forward?

Perhaps Williams themselves would come forward? Or their engineering arm.


I suppose it would be a bit like McLaren making the ECUs?

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Have any manufacturers come forward?

Maybe Williams will. Who knows, after all, McLaren won the tender to manufacture and supply the standardised ECU that all the teams have to use. And even though that was some time ago, I believe that they still hlod the contract.


Stranger things have happened. Mind you, it would be nice to have Hewland back.

[S griffin]

Williams know all about technology. Not sure if the McLaren is relevant here

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

It has been suggested on these pages that the FIA is to mandate a standardised gearbox from 2021 onwards. This would seem to make William's decision rather questionable.

That is for gearbox internals only - casing, oil system, CoG would all still be down to each team.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by pirenzo

Perhaps Williams themselves would come forward? Or their engineering arm.

Since they are clearly doing so well at it?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Why not have either Hewland, who manufacture the gearboxes for F2, or Xtrac who manufacture gearboxes for a variety of motosports series?

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Williams know all about technology. Not sure if the McLaren is relevant here

Why do they still use materials for the gearbox that everyone else dropped a decade ago?

[S griffin]

Because they haven’t got the money to progress

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Sorry, but can you explain what you mean and how what you are saying has any bearing on the gearbox issue.

What?! The Gearbox has a bearing issue already?!

[Greem]

https://www.motorsportjobs.com/en/jobs/williams

11 aero-related jobs going at Williams; looks like they've identified at least part of the problem.

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by Greem

https://www.motorsportjobs.com/en/jobs/williams

11 aero-related jobs going at Williams; looks like they've identified at least part of the problem.

Or there has been a mass exodus....

[bjohnsonsmith]

I thought this was an interesting article on Williams' predicament.

http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/142273

[pirenzo]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Since they are clearly doing so well at it?

Well, it perhaps doesn't make sense in their situation to be investing in gearboxes for their own sake. But to supply the whole grid it could well do.

The issue of other teams effectively financing Williams by being required to purchase gearboxes from them is a potentially thorny one, but McLaren have done it somehow with the ECUs.

[Richard C]

What I find odd about the idea that Williams continues to develop their own gearbox in-house only because they plan to submit a bid on the F1 standard gearbox is...

The tender is just for the internal gearbox cassette and not the entire gearbox. The thing that people complain about with respect to Williams is that they continue to use an aluminum casing instead of a carbon fiber unit. So regardless of who get the tender, Williams will still be faced with the issue of... do we source a gearbox (and maybe rear-end suspension geometry/configuration) from someone else or do we build our own. And if they build their own, do they continue to build an aluminum unit or carbon one?

I suspect... that broadly speaking, the design of the internals of an F1 gearbox is not particularly rocket science (in comparison to the rest of the entire car and in particular the engine). So there are likely multiple qualified suppliers including someone like Xtrac who I believe plans to submit a bid. Even then... the spec internals while needing to meet demanding specs are intended to be the same for everyone. So there is little need (outside of acceptable cost and durability) for complex or tricky solutions. This speaks to simplicity of the solution which should expand the list of potential bidders, or... allow a highly competent supplier to outbid newcomers.

All in all, I don't buy the theory that Williams is holding out for that contract. I expect the real reason is that they just plain don't want to outsource items they feel might differentiate them. Even if their "differentiation" sucks. And that is not the internals, but the outer casing and everything that bolts too it.

Now... it will be interesting to see who gets the contract. I can already see that situation now in that somehow Williams wins the contract (lets say even on merit) and then there is speculation that they were thrown a bone to help generate revenue because everyone wants to keep Williams in F1. Does anyone even know if Williams even plans to submit a bid? For all we know Williams might even outsource much of the internals today! Their internals may be built to their spec, but do they actually do that work? Do they have the facilities to design and manufacture that many internals? If they do, they probably would need to scale up. And if you scale up would you do it just for one contract? I expect someone like Xtrac who already supplies to multiple series already has the infrastructure to support an F1 contract, while it would be a risky endeavour a small player to ramp up for a high profile contract.

Richard

[wnut]

Richard, I think you need some research into a powershift gearbox, the material science and engineering involved in powershifting 1000 hp in the components of small compact light unit would exceed anything else in the car.
I think the fact that the gearbox will prove to be a major performance differentiator is why the powers that be are trying to outsource them to a single specialized outside supplier.

[RWill2073]

I wonder if half a season of kubica to help develop the car while Russell gains experience, then swapping him out midseason for esteban ocon could be a good scenario? Then Mercedes has a more active interest in helping Williams, to give their two guys halfway respectable cars, and have a half season shootout between the two in a situation where they won't even have too many cars around them to distract from their race. Winner gets next open seat at Mercedes if bottas is not kept after this year. Would be enough of a story to get tv time for the team and sponsor too.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by RWill2073

I wonder if half a season of kubica to help develop the car while Russell gains experience, then swapping him out midseason for esteban ocon could be a good scenario? Then Mercedes has a more active interest in helping Williams, to give their two guys halfway respectable cars, and have a half season shootout between the two in a situation where they won't even have too many cars around them to distract from their race. Winner gets next open seat at Mercedes if bottas is not kept after this year. Would be enough of a story to get tv time for the team and sponsor too.

An interesting take.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by wnut

Richard, I think you need some research into a powershift gearbox, the material science and engineering involved in powershifting 1000 hp in the components of small compact light unit would exceed anything else in the car.
I think the fact that the gearbox will prove to be a major performance differentiator is why the powers that be are trying to outsource them to a single specialized outside supplier.

I think it’s quite the opposite on both counts. I am not discounting the technical requirements for an F1 gearstack or that they are not wonders of engineering and manufacturing. What I am saying is that it’s a known quantity by numerous parties. It’s probably as well understood as anything.

As to being a differentiator. Are teams complaining about this move to this standardize component? I don’t think so. I doubt there is little differences between them with respect to performance and this is why teams are probably ok with it. There is little to no gain by having the overhead of doing it themselves. Probably the main area of any difference would be in lubricants and that can continue to be the purview of the teams and their lubricant partner. Assuming that is not tightly controlled by whoever supplies the gear stack.

Remember I am talking about the gear cassette, not the entire gearbox. There remains plenty of differentiation in that area. It’s also not clear to me if things like the differential is part of the standardization or not.

Richard

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I think it’s quite the opposite on both counts. I am not discounting the technical requirements for an F1 gearstack or that they are not wonders of engineering and manufacturing. What I am saying is that it’s a known quantity by numerous parties. It’s probably as well understood as anything.

As to being a differentiator. Are teams complaining about this move to this standardize component? I don’t think so. I doubt there is little differences between them with respect to performance and this is why teams are probably ok with it. There is little to no gain by having the overhead of doing it themselves. Probably the main area of any difference would be in lubricants and that can continue to be the purview of the teams and their lubricant partner. Assuming that is not tightly controlled by whoever supplies the gear stack.

Remember I am talking about the gear cassette, not the entire gearbox. There remains plenty of differentiation in that area. It’s also not clear to me if things like the differential is part of the standardization or not.

Richard

If the components are that straight forward, then why not leave it up to competing multiple suppliers to service the teams' needs. Should be cheaper than having a chosen supplier of a standard item.

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by RWill2073

I wonder if half a season of kubica to help develop the car while Russell gains experience, then swapping him out midseason for esteban ocon could be a good scenario? Then Mercedes has a more active interest in helping Williams, to give their two guys halfway respectable cars, and have a half season shootout between the two in a situation where they won't even have too many cars around them to distract from their race. Winner gets next open seat at Mercedes if bottas is not kept after this year. Would be enough of a story to get tv time for the team and sponsor too.

Kubica is paying for the season and Mercedes wouldn't pay to put Ocon in the Williams as they are already supporting Russell.

Mercedes know what Ocon can do they don't need to put him in a Williams and of you were Ocon you would give it a wide berth at the moment surely?

Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk

[S griffin]

Well it depends how much Kubica improves by and it depends how much Ocon wants to be back in F1

[Aysedasi]

Not enough to be in a dog of a Williams..... More likely to do him more harm than good, something Kubica should have been able to recognise. Smacks of desperation to get back in a F1 car somehow, anyhow.......

[VIVA GT]

All of this speculation about Williams possibly supplying the spec. gearbox is making me feel guilty! A while ago I made a very glib comment to this effect as an explanation as to why they were continuing to make their own, I certainly wasn't being serious...

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

All of this speculation about Williams possibly supplying the spec. gearbox is making me feel guilty! A while ago I made a very glib comment to this effect as an explanation as to why they were continuing to make their own, I certainly wasn't being serious...

Look what you've started, .

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Makes sense, if you can't climb upto where the others are... Bring them back to you by having them use your kit.